More on "selfie"

[PeterAit]

Remember my ill-considered suggestion to ban this word? Now, the Oxford Dictionary has named it Word of the Year!

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53598532/ns/local_news-raleigh_nc/#.Uotc4PLwh20

[tom b]

You had no chance of getting selfie banned, it's like getting people to stop saying "I'm on the train" into their cell/mobile phones.

Cheers,

[Rob C]

You had no chance of getting selfie banned, it's like getting people to stop saying "I'm on the train" into their cell/mobile phones.

Cheers,

Well, I never!

That's yet another thing I have yet to say! I think the last time a train drew me into its bosom must have been 1980 or 1981. It was a long, cold run from Glasgow to London. Of course, it would have been difficult to have reached anyone anywhere in those days; only Star Trek had the technology. I have yet to understand why I hadn't flown instead, but there must have been a good reason now lost to history.

Rob C

[Robert Roaldi]

The OED (and English generally) has a long tradition of being descriptive, not prescriptive. If enough people use it, it's a word. Trying to get a new "word" banned won't work; the reference to it is itself another instance of its use and thus contributes to the eventual legitimization. The best tactic is not to use a word that you don't like, but the odds are long that that tactic will work. Embrace the flexibility, it's an advantage.

[PeterAit]

The OED (and English generally) has a long tradition of being descriptive, not prescriptive. If enough people use it, it's a word. Trying to get a new "word" banned won't work; the reference to it is itself another instance of its use and thus contributes to the eventual legitimization. The best tactic is not to use a word that you don't like, but the odds are long that that tactic will work. Embrace the flexibility, it's an advantage.

Exactly! A dictionary is supposed to describe what the language *is* and not what the language is *supposed to be." Except, maybe, in France!

[Rob C]

Exactly! A dictionary is supposed to describe what the language *is* and not what the language is *supposed to be." Except, maybe, in France!

I think there is a difference between English language and slang. I'm happy to accept 'selfie' & friends as slang.

Rob C

[Robert Roaldi]

Slang words and expressions are in the OED too. Sometimes a slang word stays slang for a long time, and sometimes it becomes a "real" word really quickly. It depends on its use.

[Telecaster]

I think there is a difference between English language and slang. I'm happy to accept 'selfie' & friends as slang.

As far as I can tell "slang" is an artificial construct created by class-conscious arbiters who wished to create and enforce a standard language. Language, however, is simply what we use to communicate with. If a word is an effective communicator it'll stick regardless of the efforts of arbiters, otherwise it won't.

-Dave-

[Robert Roaldi]

As far as I can tell "slang" is an artificial construct created by class-conscious arbiters who wished to create and enforce a standard language. Language, however, is simply what we use to communicate with. If a word is an effective communicator it'll stick regardless of the efforts of arbiters, otherwise it won't.

-Dave-

Well, yeah.

There used to be school marms who would rap your knuckles if you split an infinitive or ended a sentence with a preposition. There were never any such "rules", none to this day, but some continue to believe there are. Luckily, the language doesn't care about arbiters, it moves on regardless.

[Rob C]

Well, in this day and age, I'm surprised to read folks knocking the upholding of standard English.

I'd have imagined that the more people read and experience, then the more they would realise the importance of precise meaning, and in order to get to that point, much depends on verbal and written construction, inflection and universally understood terminology.

I'd also be surprised to learn that much law gets written in slang; must be a reason why not...

As for snobbery - I don't think so; however, such a concept could certainly be used as a fine banner for the rabble-inspired lowering of standards, especially when political stances are injected into the fact; it happens in everything else, so perhaps language can't reasonably expect to escape unscathed either.

Personally, I'm happy to use either, but I do try to understand the difference surrounding appropriateness of each.

Rob C

[RSL]

Language is a moving target all right, but one thing you have to remember is that we think with language. In general, there's nothing wrong with slang in casual conversation, but slopping language up with garbage words like "selfie" tends to lower the precision of thought. I keep coming back to atrocities like the supposedly competent columnist who writes: "The fact that he didn't understand the issue begs the question: why didn't he?" "Begs the question" implies that the question contains an assertion. The classic example is: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" When the meaning of “beg the question” becomes obfuscated by this kind of sloppy ignorance, we’ve lost some of the subtlety that lets English convey a lot of meaning with a few words. If you can’t say, “It begs the question” to indicate that the question is loaded with an assertion, then you have to go all the way ‘round Robin Hood’s barn to explain what’s wrong with the question. Communication is what allows a society to exist, so language is important stuff.

[tom b]

The first recognised use of the term - shorthand for a self-portrait photograph - was in 2002 on an Australian online forum.


Selfie is typical of Australian contraction of words; Aussie = Australian, Tassie = Tasmania and cossie = (swimming) costume. I never knew that I spoke so much colloquial language until I travelled overseas. I still remember Jimmy Conners when he first started commentary on the Australian Open, he kept on asking the other commentators what they were talking about. The advantage for Australians is that we have been brought up on British and American/Canadian television so we are aware of your/their slang.

Cheers,

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... garbage words like "selfie"...

I think, Russ, what can be likened to garbage is the concept that the word refers to, not the word itself. I think the word is the right one to describe not just any self-portrait (which in itself is a long-standing and respectable tradition) but the current narcissistic trend and an obsession with "living in the moment."

[Rob C]

I think, Russ, what can be likened to garbage is the concept that the word refers to, not the word itself. I think the word is the right one to describe not just any self-portrait (which in itself is a long-standing and respectable tradition) but the current narcissistic trend and an obsession with "living in the moment."

Just when I discover a new, secret, vice I'm told it's probably narcissistic!

I discovered a while ago that the 'moment' is all we truly have; the problem with the philosophy of such recognition, though, is that we can't usually know just how many 'nows' we are going to be allowed, which can pose critical issues for the quality of any such future 'nows'.

As often happens, this thought takes me back to sayings of those older and wiser than I, my late father-in-law, for one, who used to tell the tale of the gentleman standing at the town crossroads, his pinstripes clearly the worse for wear, the placard suspended from his neck proclaiming: My Calculations Were Wrong.

Rob C

[kencameron]

... slopping language up with garbage words like "selfie" tends to lower the precision of thought...

"Selfie" is a new word for a new phenomenon. As such, it enhances the precision of expression, and hence of thought. "Self-portrait" has a broader meaning. "Begs the question" is a phrase which used to have a precise meaning which many, perhaps most, people now using it don't understand. Language always moves in both directions, with precision being gained in one place and lost in another. There never was a golden age in which all words and phrases had a precise meaning. Precision of expression and thought always has been and always will be a personal achievement using the imperfect instrument of language.
 

[jjj]

You had no chance of getting selfie banned, it's like getting people to stop saying "I'm on the train" into their cell/mobile phones.

Personally I always thought those complaining about people saying 'I'm on the train/bus" were the actual buffoons. Yes you can see the person speaking on the phone, because you are on the vehicle with them. But because it a mobile phone the person on the other end has no idea where the caller is. So letting someone know where you are is a perfectly sensible/normal thing to say if for example your partner is getting tea ready for when you get home, you're meeting someone or maybe you are letting your Mum know you did get the bus on time...etc.

[jjj]

Sadly for those who dislike the term selfie, it's already morphed further.
Welcome to the 'belfie'. The bum selfie. Yes really.
Though the Daily Mail in it's rush to find an excuse to show pictures of women backsides did an article on the supposed new trend started by Kim Kardashian [like it had never been done before] and did so with a bunch of photos taken by someone other than the subject. Duh!
Probably didn't pay the photographers for them either.

[jjj]

"Selfie" is a new word for a new phenomenon. As such, it enhances the precision of expression, and hence of thought. "Self-portrait" has a broader meaning. "Begs the question" is a phrase which used to have a precise meaning which many, perhaps most, people now using it don't understand. Language always moves in both directions, with precision being gained in one place and lost in another. There never was a golden age in which all words and phrases had a precise meaning. Precision of expression and thought always has been and always will be a personal achievement using the imperfect instrument of language.

Yup. Nail. Head. Hit.
But obviously the language people spoke when they where young is like the music of their time, far better than the new fangled crap that youngsters currently speak/listen to.

[jjj]

Well, in this day and age, I'm surprised to read folks knocking the upholding of standard English.

So what exactly is standard English then Rob?

I'd have imagined that the more people read and experience, then the more they would realise the importance of precise meaning, and in order to get to that point, much depends on verbal and written construction, inflection and universally understood terminology.

And 'Selfie' is a pretty precise way of describing 'an amateurish self portrait taken by the subject whilst still holding the camera either pointing back at themselves at arm's length or one of themselves reflected in a mirror which also shows the camera being used'. as opposed to 'self portrait', which is a much vaguer term.

[RSL]

Sadly for those who dislike the term selfie, it's already morphed further.
Welcome to the 'belfie'. The bum selfie.

Looks more like a "buttsie" to me.