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Author Topic: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?  (Read 15517 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: There was no SLR video firmware in 2007; there is now
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2013, 02:25:25 pm »

Hi,

Keeping two separate firmware versions, one supporting video and the other not must be more expensing than maintaining one version.

Best regards
Erik

The firmware and such had not been developed for video in the 1DsIII back when it was announced back in August 2007, or for any other DSLR: the D90 was the first DSLR with video, a year later.

But the firmware for video support has now been developed, and specifically it exists for the sensor and processor combination in the Df, because both are the same as in the D4.
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tyurek

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2013, 03:01:13 pm »

I feel that the retro looks of modern digital cameras make them look like they are wearing Halloween costumes. I'm all for simplicity and "back to the basics" controls, having started photography in the film era. However, there's something about this "costume" feel which bothers me, be it Nikon or Fuji or Olympus. And I cannot explain exactly what. Leica is the only one which looks rather organic.
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TMARK

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2013, 03:06:31 pm »

I like the Fujis, they are functional and mostly well laid out.  They have lots of innovation underneath a proven form factor.  The XPro is nice, as is the X100s, if it were in black.

I think the Df's industrial design is the real problem. 

I feel that the retro looks of modern digital cameras make them look like they are wearing Halloween costumes. I'm all for simplicity and "back to the basics" controls, having started photography in the film era. However, there's something about this "costume" feel which bothers me, be it Nikon or Fuji or Olympus. And I cannot explain exactly what. Leica is the only one which looks rather organic.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2013, 03:23:00 pm »

A word on marketing and Hipsters:  The target market is not "Hipsters".  In fact, there is no clearly delineated market for "Hipster".  The reality is that "Hipster" covers lots of ground: age group 16 - 70, income $0 - Unlimited, ethnicity ALL, gender ALL.  If your neighbor recycles s/he may be a Hipster.  If you vote Social Democratic you may very well be a Hipster.  If you wear a 20's costume EVERYDAY you are a Hipster.  Steve Jobs was a Hipster.  So is the bartender who dresses like an extra from Boardwalk Empire.  Its more a set of attitudes than anything else.  Now that I'm done with my rant, I feel better. 



You tell them... LOL  ;D
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2013, 03:28:33 pm »


If anyone buys a NIKON Df and gets sick of it, just send it to me, I will give it a loving home.

NIKON, thanks again, if you can't sell them send them to me. I will love them all...

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Vladimirovich

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Re: There was no SLR video firmware in 2007; there is now
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2013, 03:34:22 pm »

Hi,

Keeping two separate firmware versions, one supporting video and the other not must be more expensing than maintaining one version.

Best regards
Erik


As Adobe shows us - keeping ACR supporting or not certain features based on which PS versions is calling ACR is not a big deal... you just put some if then else in your code to hide video related items from menu  ::)
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Glenn NK

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2013, 03:35:16 pm »

I'm a Canon guy since 1980, but I really like the retro look of this new Nikon.

My cameras were:  Asahi Pentax, Pentax SV, and Canon A-1, so this one looks like a "real" camera to an older fart like me.

If it doesn't have a prism bump, it's not a 35 mm camera. :D

I think the retro look will sell - isn't that what's it's all about for the manufacturer?

Glenn

What a Leica?
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2013, 03:35:23 pm »

Seeing all this Retro discussion I start missing my Mamiya Press - a camera you don't have to care for when it falls on your foot - you'd have to take care of the foot instead ...

AlfSollund

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2013, 03:46:23 pm »

This must be the only great DSLR to come from Nikon in terms of handling except for lack of decent MF. It looks like it even best the M in terms of layout and perhaps handling. But for me this camera is at least 5 years to late. Also its just Nikon lenses, not Leica, so Leica is not to worry.

Also, Nikon is now associated with advanced DSLRs based on a certain design. I would say one that effectively  disables the fun of photography. Its very hard to change this except of they scarp all models except Df.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: There was no SLR video firmware in 2007; there is now
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2013, 03:46:45 pm »

Yeah, crippling software is no big deal. What I say is that maintaing two different versions is expensive. Having one software and crippling it several ways is a cheap trick. Cheap and trick.

Best regards
Erik


As Adobe shows us - keeping ACR supporting or not certain features based on which PS versions is calling ACR is not a big deal... you just put some if then else in your code to hide video related items from menu  ::)
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Lee Rentz

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2013, 03:56:44 pm »

My first Canon SLR, purchased in 1970, looked a lot like that. It was a good look for its time, but this should be an era of looking forward, not back.
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Rob C

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2013, 03:59:23 pm »

Absolutely, just like the Nikon F killed the Leica M3.   :D


I was there at the time Leica's professional music died.

My last employer’s 35mm arsenal (1965!) included several Leicas, one of them an M3. He also had a Nikon F and several lenses for both systems. The only use the M3 ended up getting was with a 21mm that we used to shoot room sets up at the BBC tv studios  in Glasgow. Everything else that required the format was given over to Nikon, with most of the rest done with Mamiya, Rolleiflex TLR and Sinar. He eventually sold the M3 to an ex-assistant for old times’ sake.

In the wider world, Leica lost its laurels to Nikon when the Leicas being serviced during the Korean episode were replaced by temporary Nikons that surprised the editors back in the States (a song in there, somewhere?) by permitting better-quality reproduction in the press, presumably because of different lens design parameters. From then on, Leica slipped into the grasp of the wealthy amateur and hasn’t really had much of a professional comeback since.

I could easily have bought Leicas of either body type in my working days; I never did because the rangefinders were simply too vague regarding actual coverage of the scene in a world where getting the last ounce out of real estate was essential - cropping was for farmers. The reflex Leicas always seemed to be a few years behind everybody else, and their screens never showed 100% as the Nikon F did. They failed the first, crucial test of WYSIWYG.

Again, today as sometimes in the past, price is no definitive guide to value.

Rob C



BJL

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Re: There was no SLR video firmware in 2007; there is now
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2013, 04:10:03 pm »

Yeah, crippling software is no big deal. What I say is that maintaing two different versions is expensive. Having one software and crippling it several ways is a cheap trick. Cheap and trick.
I almost wonder if there could be a "Magic Lantern" firmware hack to enable (silent) video!
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Misirlou

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2013, 04:50:04 pm »

Seeing all this Retro discussion I start missing my Mamiya Press - a camera you don't have to care for when it falls on your foot - you'd have to take care of the foot instead ...

Great camera
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Iluvmycam

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2013, 05:01:07 pm »

 Are you kidding OP? DF has nothing in common with a M. I can't understand why you would even bring up this topic.

If Nikon, Canon or Fuji make a frue Leica knockoff that took Leica glass and had a FF 28 to 36 mp sensor and sold for $3000...OK, then Leica may be heading for the graveyard.

I for one would buy 2 or 3 of such rangefinders. I've given up on Leica myself. They are nothing but a rich man's plaything to fondle. They are no longer a working photojournalists cam.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2013, 05:05:39 pm »

Great camera

Yeah - But I have fallen in love with the 7 II .... stellar glass, lightweight, awesome IQ ....
If they'd make a digital equivalent I'd be in .... like a 60 MP large sensor version of the X-Pro 1

ripgriffith

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2013, 05:20:34 pm »

Absolutely, just like the Nikon F killed the Leica M3.   :D
Actually, for those of us who were shooting in the 50s, early 60s, particularly reportage, the F was the first camera that offered a reasonably alternative to the M3 by giving us a longer range of lenses; we were no longer limited to the excellent but extremely cumbersome Elmarit 135/2.8 with its goggles.  IIRC, my first Nikon purchase was an F and a 180/2.8 and a 300, but these were adjuncts to my Leicas, not replacements.
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Telecaster

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 10:13:55 pm »

Actually, for those of us who were shooting in the 50s, early 60s, particularly reportage, the F was the first camera that offered a reasonable alternative to the M3 by giving us a longer range of lenses; we were no longer limited to the excellent but extremely cumbersome Elmarit 135/2.8 with its goggles.  IIRC, my first Nikon purchase was an F and a 180/2.8 and a 300, but these were adjuncts to my Leicas, not replacements.

Somewhere in the house I have a book containing a photo of Larry Burrows in Vietnam during the war...he's got two cameras hanging off his neck: a Leica + 35mm lens and a Nikon F + 180mm. I've always thought of that photo as recording the moment in time when one mode of photojournalism began dissolving into another.

I bought my dad a used but mint Nikon F2 plus 28/50/105mm lenses for his 85th birthday. They were his tools of choice during the last six years of his life. He could no longer focus accurately with his Leica or Retina, but the F2...no problem.

-Dave-
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TMARK

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2013, 09:57:54 am »

The Df certainly isn't for PJ work, not saying it can't perform that job well.  The M is no longer for PJ work either.  Those days are long, long gone.  Its all big bodied Canons and Nikons, with a small bodied Canon or Nikon as a second camera.

When I was a PJ, late 80's early 90's, I carried a Leica M6, but only for environmental type portraits or where I needed to be discrete.  My main cameras were F4s's and an FM2, because they were fast to load film and were/are TTL.  The F4 doubled as personal protection, it was like carying a brick.

I would think that now a Fuji X series camera would be a real replacement for the Leica M.  If Fuji came out with a full frame Xpro or X100 type camera, and made excellent lenses for them, Leica would have more problems.  But this Df is not a threat.  The price isn't high enough.
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JeanMichel

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Re: Does the Nikon Df sound the death knell of the Leica M?
« Reply #39 on: November 06, 2013, 11:12:28 am »

The Df certainly isn't for PJ work, not saying it can't perform that job well.  The M is no longer for PJ work either.  Those days are long, long gone.  Its all big bodied Canons and Nikons, with a small bodied Canon or Nikon as a second camera.

When I was a PJ, late 80's early 90's, I carried a Leica M6, but only for environmental type portraits or where I needed to be discrete.  My main cameras were F4s's and an FM2, because they were fast to load film and were/are TTL.  The F4 doubled as personal protection, it was like carying a brick.

I would think that now a Fuji X series camera would be a real replacement for the Leica M.  If Fuji came out with a full frame Xpro or X100 type camera, and made excellent lenses for them, Leica would have more problems.  But this Df is not a threat.  The price isn't high enough.

I am not sure that Leica's are now only used by wealthy amateurs. It is true that it would very strange to see an M in a throng of photographers shooting an event such as the Toronto Mayor's press conference yesterday: full auto everything, xxx frames per second, and perhaps wi-fi direct to the newsroom. I am finding that people are curious about my photographing with an old-fashioned camera (an M9) "....can you still get film today?" It establishes a different type of relationship, perhaps a welcome intrusion into their lives. So, for much of what I do an M or something similar is what I want; for much of the rest of my work it is a 5d2 or whatever I eventually replace it with.
Jean-Michel
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