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Author Topic: Stretching Mirrored Edges  (Read 9128 times)

jferrari

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2013, 12:32:44 pm »

As I understand it, Mike (Sellers), these work well with the correct film. I have never used one so I can't speak from experience.     - Jim
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 07:41:46 pm by jferrari »
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Kanvas Keepsakes

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2013, 02:24:36 pm »

From what I've seen online as far as videos and instructions goes, it seems to me as if the laminator system kind of heats the laminate over the canvas and the heat press actually vacuums the laminate into the canvas. So this would allow the weave and texture to stay while sealing with a laminate.  I may be wrong, though. 
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jferrari

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2013, 04:53:53 pm »

The laminator that Mike is referring to is a roll laminator (see attached photo I pulled from the web) as opposed to the vacuum press style that I have. The roll style is nice because it takes up less real estate and you can do very long panos whereas my print size is limited to the size of the press. You're right though, it's all about the heat and pressure to maintain the texture of the canvas.    - Jim
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Bullfrog

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2013, 06:46:19 pm »

Mike -
If my canvas stretched that much, I would find another because as another said, what if the customer wants reflected borders.  

Assuming however you don't want that answer so, I would adjust the image down 1/8 or 1/16 of an inch on each side to allow for "stretch" and buy keyed bars.  I have been perfecting my stretching and have found I can hand stretch and then use the keys to "expand" and get a very tight drum fit.  And NO expensive pliers are needed.

And while I know you invested already in a stapler, I'm pretty sure the reason you must have had to bang in the staples in past was again due to the bars.  

If you buy Upper Canada stretcher bars made of clear pine - they are softer (but sturdier) than bass wood, and having read a few other posts on other sites from other people, I'm convinced this is the reason I don't have to use anything but a manual stapler.   The staples just go in easily the first time.   The basic bars are tongue and grooved - these ones fit nicely however to prevent the key from puncturing through I staple both sides twice on each corner once I have it squared.

Same for the larger (deeper) bars of 1.5".  I stretched a 60" pano with ease using these bars.

I have like you found practice makes perfect, but how you start out is I think how you end up.  My canvas of choice does not contain lyrca which I believe you or another here has said is in Lyve.   

I don't know how you would use pins without leaving a tiny hole in the canvas - but perhaps someone knows something I don't. 

Good luck



« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 06:48:11 pm by Bullfrog »
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2013, 11:15:37 pm »

I'll send pics of the process if ya wanna see my method. 

I'm also using the BC Stretch Relief players, so yes please... I'd love to see some pics of the process!
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Mike Guilbault

Mike Guilbault

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2013, 11:28:03 pm »

Bullfrog... The only problem I have with the keyed stretchers is that you can't judge what the final dimensions will be, thus if you have a particular frame you want to use, it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right.  I suppose for gallery wraps a 1/16 or 1/8" isn't going to matter much though. 

But that does lead me to another problem I'm having and maybe the keyed stretchers are the answer.  I have a couple of canvases that have been stretched 'drum tight' with the Stretch Relief pliers, but have since become less tight - almost sagging (but not noticeable on display). I think the extra stretch I've been experiencing when pulling the canvas may be stretching the canvas too much and after a while it settles in the stretch and loses it's tightness.

Which Upper Canada Stretchers do you use?  They have so many. 
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Mike Guilbault

Bullfrog

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2013, 01:07:07 am »

Bullfrog... The only problem I have with the keyed stretchers is that you can't judge what the final dimensions will be, thus if you have a particular frame you want to use, it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right.  I suppose for gallery wraps a 1/16 or 1/8" isn't going to matter much though.  

But that does lead me to another problem I'm having and maybe the keyed stretchers are the answer.  I have a couple of canvases that have been stretched 'drum tight' with the Stretch Relief pliers, but have since become less tight - almost sagging (but not noticeable on display). I think the extra stretch I've been experiencing when pulling the canvas may be stretching the canvas too much and after a while it settles in the stretch and loses it's tightness.

Which Upper Canada Stretchers do you use?  They have so many.  

Mike - maybe its my ignorance,  but I just don't understand what you mean that "it's difficult to get the dimension of the canvas just right"".    I order a bar to the exact size I want, and that is what I get.  His stuff is very precise.  When you assemble the bars - I measure on the diagonal before stapling the corners to ensure its square and will allow 1/16 variance (sometimes 1/8")- but that is a problem with any bar.

Yes, all canvas sags - I just don't see how it wouldn't over time and its the reason I've decided against using paper to cover the back.  I use linen tape on the back to make a neat seam and only apply kraft paper if I'm using a frame (floating or traditional).  If a person insists on having it covered with paper unframed, I will, but then ripping that paper off is going to make a heck of a mess and it is not what I recommend.

My "stupid" mistake in stretching mine was not double stapling the corners on both sides (I turn it over and do the reverse side as well) once I had the bars squared.  That and the possibility that the key provided was not perfectly cut - but anyway, I've now become a micro manager and measure my keys before tapping in to ensure they are not less than 5/8" of an inch - another task to add to the checklist  ::)

It has definitely taken me time to get wrapping done right and I admit to a learning curve but having those keys really has made a difference.  You can "adjust" each corner to the degree you need.  Any canvas over 36" wide requires a middle strut which he also provides keys for -and his workmanship is excellent.

Here's the company I'm referring to.
http://www.ucsart.com/

I look forward to the video - because while I feel I have finally ironed the kinks out of my process, I have learned a lot here just by watching what others do and can always benefit from new information.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 01:11:46 am by Bullfrog »
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2013, 06:31:34 pm »

It may actually be my ignorance - but what I'm referring to is when the keys are 'knocked in' to expand the stretchers, doesn't the dimension of the canvas (the face of the canvas) change - get bigger?  It may not be enough to worry about - I don't know.

When you say stapling the corners on each side, are you referring to stapling the wooden bars at the joints - and on both the front and back?  And what are you measuring on the keys?

This is all very interesting - to me at least - not so much my wife! ;)

And yes, I know of UCS.  I actually live about two hours away from them and used to live in Owen Sound myself many years ago.
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Mike Guilbault

Bullfrog

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2013, 08:43:33 am »

It may actually be my ignorance - but what I'm referring to is when the keys are 'knocked in' to expand the stretchers, doesn't the dimension of the canvas (the face of the canvas) change - get bigger?  It may not be enough to worry about - I don't know.

When you say stapling the corners on each side, are you referring to stapling the wooden bars at the joints - and on both the front and back?  And what are you measuring on the keys?

This is all very interesting - to me at least - not so much my wife! ;)

And yes, I know of UCS.  I actually live about two hours away from them and used to live in Owen Sound myself many years ago.

Yeah, pretty dry stuff isn't it. (The life of a photographer )

Anyway, No, the dimension of the actual canvas does not change because you fix the bars with staples to keep everything from moving.

So Yes, when you assemble the bars, you must staple the actual bars at each corner. The "Basic" bar is 7/8" deep and this bar is tongue and groove fitted, however, the pressure of stretching will actually shift the bars so its essential to staple them before you wrap a canvas around them..

The larger gallery bars (1.5 inches deep) are not tongue and groove - they are mitered corners , so they absolutely required stapling to hold them together.

You can buy tongue and groove 1.5 inch deep bars - but they are very expensive (because it increases the amount of wood and thickness of the bar ) - I don't .  Its not necessary for the giclee - since the art is not really heavy (not like an artist canvas that may have a great deal of pigment splashed on it)

My mistake was using the tongue and groove and not stapling both sides (ie staple the corners on the front and turn it over and do the same thing on the back).  This resulted in the key actually being able to perforate the canvas because the bars were not secured tightly.

So, given that, the dimensions of the finished canvas are very precise - and accepting you square the bars properly before stapling, the final dimension is fixed.

The keys "expand" and create tension.  It essentially allows me to hand stretch , although I have found using a basic stretcher pliers makes it a bit easier, I bought from UCS - it was about $20 I think.

What I'm measuring on the key is the "pointy" end - the key is a kind of wedge shape and the smallest end fits into the bar.  The problem I've had once or twice is they cut the key less than 5/8" at the smallest end - and if this happens, the key will perforate the canvas .  Not good - however, I should state, that his quality is very good.

For me, having a bar that won't warp, and will adjust with keys is a real advantage.  I add a dab of glue to the key AFTER I insert it to keep it from falling out, and if and when the canvas needs to be re-tensioned, the key can be easily tapped loose.

His middle "struts" are also keyed which on  a long pano for example, really makes it drum tight.

I admit that if people want cheap canvas, then all of this seems over kill and I suppose its price point that decides what quality of bar you use.

To summarize my long narrative:

- first you assemble the bars
- then you measure diagonal (both ways) to ensure they are square
- then staple twice each corner on one side - flip it over and repeat on the other
- add the strut if required (no stapling here - it simply slides in)
- wrap the canvas
- pre-measure the short end of the key to ensure it is not less than 5/8"
- insert the keys into each corner and if applicable strut - lightly tap to create sufficient tension
- add a tiny dab of glue to the key at the shoulder to prevent it from falling out

Le voila!
« Last Edit: November 10, 2013, 08:47:15 am by Bullfrog »
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mg73

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2013, 05:30:47 am »

I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars. I can see how it would keep the corners square, but if you staple them it seems it wouldn't allow expansion when you put in the keys.  I haven't used keys so maybe I've got this conceptually wrong.
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jferrari

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2013, 11:06:35 pm »

I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars.

Check out this link and watch the video. All will become clear at about 1:20 or so. I am not a proponent of this method but it may be a solution for some people.
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Bullfrog

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2013, 01:18:16 pm »

I'm not sure I understand something about "stapling the corners" of the stretcher bars. I can see how it would keep the corners square, but if you staple them it seems it wouldn't allow expansion when you put in the keys.  I haven't used keys so maybe I've got this conceptually wrong.

OK.  I am guilty sometimes of providing more detail than necessary - so let me simplify.

The bars are shipped to you in pieces.  Unless you have magic fairy dust or are a master in psychokinesis, you have to staple them to hold them together.  
SOME bars are tongue and groove - which means you can assemble without hardware - but the moment you pick them up - they warp, jigsaw, or basically turn to mush- so again, without that fairy dust, its staple staple staple!

This has NO impact on the use of keys which are inserted in little "pockets" within the corners of the bars. 


PS:  ( I just finished watching 5 seasons of Fringe on Netflix, if you haven't seen it, the humor in this post will be lost on you)

Cheers

 :D
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Luca Ragogna

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 12:05:05 am »

I've done a few mirrored edge gallery wraps but trying to improve the edges on the wrap during the stretch.  Sometimes they're a little off and I need to re-stretch.  Part of the problem seems to be the stretchability of the canvas.  I'm using BC Lyve.  Do you find it stretches more than other canvas?  Any little tricks to getting the mirrored edge right on the edge of the wrap?

I don't print on Lyve anymore but I did for a few years. I sprayed with Timeless (mostly Satin) and found that the canvas would shrink in the direction of the roll feed and I'd have to stretch the image in PS to 101.5% to get the image to be the proper size for canvas to stretch exactly. I don't know why but when I switched to the Canon those issues went away and I don't have to stretch the image anymore.

I order my bars in lengths and I cut and join them to the finished size of the canvas exactly. If I have an image that is very critical to line up with the edges of the frame, I'll still hand stretch. I just line up one edge staple all the way across and then slowly stretch the other side starting from the middle and checking that the image lines up as I staple.
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Kanvas Keepsakes

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2013, 11:55:11 am »

Here are the images of the beginning process for me.  This allows me to line up perfectly with the help of the Pitbull Stretcher Tool.  I have about 25 images of the whole process if anyone wants to see them.  For now here's the limit (4 images) to show how I align for mirrored edges.  Place frame above image.  Flip over corner edges and mark with a marker.  Do all 4 corners then flip over and align frame with marker points.
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enduser

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 08:25:42 pm »

After stretching and selling about 1,500 canvases I'm convinced that the process is as much of an art as a science.  I still pick up new ideas on the net about once every few months.
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Mike Guilbault

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2013, 11:04:50 pm »

I don't print on Lyve anymore but I did for a few years. I sprayed with Timeless (mostly Satin) and found that the canvas would shrink in the direction of the roll feed and I'd have to stretch the image in PS to 101.5% to get the image to be the proper size for canvas to stretch exactly. I don't know why but when I switched to the Canon those issues went away and I don't have to stretch the image anymore.

I order my bars in lengths and I cut and join them to the finished size of the canvas exactly. If I have an image that is very critical to line up with the edges of the frame, I'll still hand stretch. I just line up one edge staple all the way across and then slowly stretch the other side starting from the middle and checking that the image lines up as I staple.

Hey Luca!  I had the same shrinkage problem when i  started with Lyve and contacted BC about it.  They sent me a new profile and it fixed the problem. My canvases are coming out exactly to the measurement.

I just got in some Gallery bars from Upper Canada Stretchers and will try those.  They look pretty good and I like the fact that they're keyed. Putting together half a dozen in the next couple days.
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Mike Guilbault

Mike Guilbault

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2013, 11:07:45 pm »

To mark the corners, I hold up the canvas to a light with the image facing the light and then mark the corners with a pencil, tracing the corner from behind.  Works great and very fast.  Flip the canvas over and lay the stretcher against the corner marks.
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Mike Guilbault

dgberg

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2013, 11:40:53 pm »

Responding to Mike Sellars
That one works well with Seals Print Guard Matte and Luster.
Use the middle heat setting and run it slow.
The luster looks fantastic but the matte is way to milky for my taste.
If it is the same machine I looked at on EBay (located Ben Salem,Pa.) they had a piece of tape in the center of the roll.
If it is covering a cut on that main roller I would not touch it. Also the buy it price was way too high.
I got my ultra on EBay for $2500,so good deals are out there.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:43:07 pm by Dan Berg »
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2013, 09:37:27 am »

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the info. Have you tried the Jet Guard Deep Crystal?
Mike
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marcsitkin

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Re: Stretching Mirrored Edges
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2013, 12:15:50 pm »

Responding to Mike Sellars
That one works well with Seals Print Guard Matte and Luster.
Use the middle heat setting and run it slow.
The luster looks fantastic but the matte is way to milky for my taste.
If it is the same machine I looked at on EBay (located Ben Salem,Pa.) they had a piece of tape in the center of the roll.
If it is covering a cut on that main roller I would not touch it. Also the buy it price was way too high.
I got my ultra on EBay for $2500,so good deals are out there.


Hi Dan-

After reading your replies regarding film laminating, I fired up my roller press and ran a couple tests.

First test was with Drytac 5mil luster heat assist film

Press settings:
60 lb pressure
speed 2 ft/min
220 degrees top roller

Results:

Lots of white adhesive showing in black areas of the print.

I rotated 90 degrees, reran at 1ft/min, still had visible unattached adhesive.

Adhesion to high spots of canvas was good, pulled the ink off the media when I tested it.

Did a second try with 3mil laminate,

Press settings:
70lbs pressure
1 ft/min
220 degrees top roller

Similar (but better) results.

Any guidance on how to improve?
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Regards,
 Marc Sitkin www.digitalmomentum
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