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Author Topic: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity  (Read 33821 times)

barryfitzgerald

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #140 on: November 05, 2013, 10:06:02 am »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-F3-HP-35mm-film-SLR-professional-camera-body-Boxed-Japan-Grade-A-1587951-/291009851802?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item43c189f19a

Just buy that!
If you want rugged, simple and back to basics. DF is overloaded with controls
Save yourself the £2300 odd and buy some film.

I'm serious I shoot a bit of film, it's very affordable pay as you go  ::)

I don't actually mind the 16mp sensor.
Bar a few die hards with an extensive range of Nikkor glass, I can't see this doing very well... Rich boys toy




« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 10:07:40 am by barryfitzgerald »
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Rob C

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #141 on: November 05, 2013, 11:30:15 am »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nikon-F3-HP-35mm-film-SLR-professional-camera-body-Boxed-Japan-Grade-A-1587951-/291009851802?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item43c189f19a

Just buy that!
If you want rugged, simple and back to basics. DF is overloaded with controls
Save yourself the £2300 odd and buy some film.

I'm serious I shoot a bit of film, it's very affordable pay as you go  ::)

I don't actually mind the 16mp sensor.
Bar a few die hards with an extensive range of Nikkor glass, I can't see this doing very well... Rich boys toy




Well, I still have my pristine F3, quite a lot of film in the freezer Ė both tranny and b/white, but will probably never use any of that stuff again.

My eyes no longer cope with the diopter I bought for it (the F3); the dealership has vanished, water is a scarce, expensive commodity here on the island; processing E6 is a terribly expensive and difficult option now - as far as local pros tell me, you have to post off to BarcelonaÖ

So, what should a new Nikon have offered me?

1.  A body about F3 size, if thatís possible for housing an FF sensor;
2.  dust shaker/remover (the D700 one works very well);
3.  option of using manual or af optics;
4.  auto ISO as per the D700 system which lets you pick what you want for shutter and/or iris;
5.  no video Ė I never have a desire for it;
6.  interchangeable screens for a real pentaprism;
7.  built-in diopter correction facility as per D700;
8.  a D700 sensor (all I can imagine ever requiring);
9,  full functionality with T/S lenses;
10. Matrix metering as good as the D700 has;
11. spot-metering ability of about 1į;
12. price point of circa £ 1800 to reflect simplicity of product;
13. no built-in flash.

In other words, a very basic camera that allows a photographer to think and make his own decisions without a host of unwanted menu choice, hidden options and nonsense Ė and no, I donít need it to tell me where Iím standing Ė I already know that, and I donít want ever to have to carry a computer along with me nor any other techie toy. I donít need any Ďpreferencesí buttons - whatís to prefer to simplicity? Pro studio snappers donít need this camera: they have plenty of others to which they can tether to their heartís content.

Making a picture is so bloody simple; why did that have to become so confused with marketing, boasting, and everything other than the making of pictures? Didnít use to be.

Rob C

« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 11:37:30 am by Rob C »
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #142 on: November 05, 2013, 01:15:25 pm »


Making a picture is so bloody simple; why did that have to become so confused with marketing, boasting, and everything other than the making of pictures? Didnít use to be.

Rob C

Quoted for truth

Isaac

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #143 on: November 05, 2013, 01:23:38 pm »

Truth? No boasting back in the Golden Age and human nature has suddenly changed? :-)
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Rob C

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #144 on: November 05, 2013, 03:24:03 pm »

Truth? No boasting back in the Golden Age and human nature has suddenly changed? :-)




Always the debating extremist, Isaac?

Photography has become like the sports industry. Once, you bought a pair of tennis shoes/sandshoes/plimsolls and a wooden racket, went to the local tennis courts and played a little tennis. Now, unless your kids are shod in the hip trainer of the day, they won't even go out into the street; what Mum and Dad have to wear in order to appear in sports club public is something quite else, too. It has to be accompanied by the Range Rover etc. etc. et-bloody-cetera; tennis? Are you crazy?

I remember something from my youth, when I was an engineering apprentice and just starting to discover the magic of the camera first-hand. I wasn't in the works camera club at the time, but knew one of the guys who was, a mountain climber with a great collection of slides of the Cuillins(?) that were very pretty to look at, especially on a hand-held little slide viewer during T-breaks on the factory floor. I mentioned in passing that I'd love a Hasselblad and he almost fainted, telling me that if I was a member of the club and showed up with one, I'd be laughed out of the room as being a nutter. How things change, how the emphasis shifts to charade...

Yes, the odd braggart was ever with us, but today he's the norm, and in photography it's much about the gear and what it costs, the more the better.

Rob C
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 03:28:11 pm by Rob C »
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Isaac

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #145 on: November 05, 2013, 04:25:52 pm »

Always the debating extremist, Isaac?

Always willing to laugh at your jokes :-)

... if I was a member of the club and showed up with one, I'd be laughed out of the room as being a nutter.

Inverted snobbery isn't new either.

Yes, the odd braggart was ever with us, but today he's the norm, ...

Perhaps more visible but not more prevalent.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 04:30:00 pm by Isaac »
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barryfitzgerald

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #146 on: November 05, 2013, 05:17:43 pm »

I have to agree with Rob's analogy with sports.
He's right on target, we might not like it but it's how the camera industry has changed so much over the years.

Half the junk we have on cameras nowadays, isn't needed or that important a very few bits are are handy but much of it is just marketing.
The industry has flogged the pixel pumping aspect to death and done it so well some folks are starting to think hmm maybe 24mp isn't really enough..can't wait to buy the 36mp APS-C sensor when it comes out or the 50mp FF one. We'll soon have 4k capable cameras shoved out there too, and people will buy them just as new shooters lapped up the D3200, marketing works so do big numbers.

Nikon's mistake here was to try to merge new tech with old rather than go for a really simple manual focus camera, with a cracking split image viewfinder. They just didn't have the guts to pull it off. Some would say that would limit it's appeal, but the DF right now is very limited in appeal anyway purely on it's slightly insane price, this is no mass market product, so what harm having a basic FF camera with MF and only the bare essentials.

It's a shame as the teaser ads led me to think Nikon were thinking minimal on this, evidently not though. They just shoved a D600 with a 16mp sensor into a "kind of" retro looking (in parts) body. That's not really very exciting IMO

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jjj

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #147 on: November 05, 2013, 07:06:51 pm »


I'm currently shooting Canon 5D3 and Nikon D800E and I have not missed a single shot due to the video function and it fact I have not even shot a video so far with any of them. The old MLU burried in menues on the Canon argument...Yes it is true, but it is much better to shoot in live view and there is a button for it when you would need MLU!! MLU is not needed any more.
Except when in live view the camera sets shutter speed to a 1/30th even if you are intending on using a slower speed. Very annoying, but there is a solution.
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jjj

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #148 on: November 05, 2013, 07:26:30 pm »

So, what should a new Nikon have offered me?

1.  A body about F3 size, if thatís possible for housing an FF sensor;
The new Sony A7r is pretty darn small and FF.
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Tradition is the Backbone of the Spinele

Rob C

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2013, 06:17:57 am »

Rob, the point is why should I care?

I don't judge image makers by what they say or what they use or what they spend, thatís the la-di-da. The thing that grabs my interest is what they do.




And that, Keith, is a good point just made.

I don't care either, and I have avoided 'clubs' all my life, but I do care that it's the reason why the simple, basic, and totally user-friendly camera that I would like doesn't exist any longer.

I'm on the mailing list for Grays of Westminster, from whom I buy the odd thing with a lot of confidence, ever since the local wholesaler died the death. Today, they sent me the bumff for the new Nikon and I was aghast! The top plate is even more intimidating than the D700 and, I would think, far more open to mistakes. And the front elevation is plain ugly. What a dumb product (and disappointment) from an admired manufacturer.

Rob C

barryfitzgerald

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #150 on: November 06, 2013, 07:03:10 am »

We can't do much about it, but it is a disappointment.
It's not even remotely a digital FM2, that camera was a solid, simple to use reliable camera with the essentials needed but nothing more.

DF is just a D600 with a 16mp sensor shoved into some retro attempt body (attempt being the word it's far from refined), with a normal Nikon DSLR back/controls.
I think it's quite sad the company could get it so wrong on this one and I can understand the disappointment from many.
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telyt

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #151 on: November 06, 2013, 10:16:18 am »

We can't do much about it, but it is a disappointment.
It's not even remotely a digital FM2, that camera was a solid, simple to use reliable camera with the essentials needed but nothing more.

DF is just a D600 with a 16mp sensor shoved into some retro attempt body (attempt being the word it's far from refined), with a normal Nikon DSLR back/controls.
I think it's quite sad the company could get it so wrong on this one and I can understand the disappointment from many.

The teaser campaign was the clue.  A good product doesn't need hype.
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amolitor

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #152 on: November 06, 2013, 11:21:37 am »

Plenty of people have wanted a cheaper stripped down D4, and that's pretty much what this thing is. It happens to come in a retro package, but if you set that aside and look at the list of features, the price is about right.

It's possible Nikon is testing to see if they should simply change their styling to something more distinctive. Every camera maker is in the mode of trying to figure out how they can capture as big a slice as possible of the market that will be around in 2 or 3 years, which will look quite a bit different from the market of 2-3 years ago. It's Enthusiasts and Professionals now, the moms and casual people who just want nice pictures are basically gone. Their phones make nice pictures now.
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Isaac

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #153 on: November 06, 2013, 12:28:09 pm »

I have to agree with Rob's analogy with sports.

To be charitable, I read Rob's sketch as an intentional Four Yorkshiremen parody.


It's Enthusiasts and Professionals now, the moms and casual people who just want nice pictures are basically gone. Their phones make nice pictures now.

If you're close enough --

Quote
The phrase that describes the most important segment of the DSLR community is: ďsoccer momĒ. ... The three reasons parents buy high end cameras is telephoto reach, low light capability, and the ability to quickly focus on their children when they are jumping a hurdle or scoring a goal.
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Justinr

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2013, 01:32:34 pm »

Alas it's the way of the world with the computer having caused mayhem amongst the formerly straight forward and simple everywhere you look. Take the humble tractor, they didn't change much (OK, there were variations on the theme) from Mr Ferguson's system tractor of 1937 'til around a decade ago when the dreaded IT got seriously involved with yield mapping and so on. Now take a look at this, the agricultural equivalent of the D4 - www.claas.co.uk/xerion5000-4500.

A cool $400,000 will buy you a new one and not only do you get 500+hp but automatic everything including steering and implement control. Naturally all the parameters can be set and recorded on the onboard computer as well as instantly being relayed to the farm office. Indeed, many machines now alert the dealer to a problem or service requirement before the farmer himself knows about it!

How much of this will be used in the field? Some of it, but along with information overload comes complexity too baffling to be used efficiently by anyone other than the guys who designed it. Just like digital photography then.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:34:09 pm by Justinr »
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Christoph C. Feldhaim

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2013, 03:33:07 pm »

I must say I am impressed by the length of the discussion threads following Mark Dubuvoys essays.
So - something about them can't be totally wrong when he manages to pinpoint and hit the neuralgic points of the community so effectively.

Isaac

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #156 on: November 06, 2013, 04:35:14 pm »

...along with information overload comes complexity too baffling to be used efficiently by anyone other than the guys who designed it. Just like digital photography then.

Please provide some examples of people too baffled by the AUTO or P setting on their camera.
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Justinr

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #157 on: November 06, 2013, 05:06:27 pm »

Please provide some examples of people too baffled by the AUTO or P setting on their camera.

If you are relying purely on AUTO or P then the chances are you are not using a D4.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 05:12:45 pm by Justinr »
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Isaac

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Re: Appeal for Divergence and Simplicity
« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2013, 05:26:58 pm »

My pure guess is that the chances are a DSLR user is not using a D4 ;-)

I was trying to make it easier, do you have any examples of people baffled by their camera?
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