Moving from 35mm to Medium Format. Need guidance (Sorry for yet another thread!)

[Hulyss]

Here we go for DP3m sample. Large file, 80+ Mo (ProPhoto RGB). Simple settings, neutral color mode under flash (Elinchrom + Octa 100cm), no reflector, just a shoot. So you can manipulate it, PP it, and up-size it if you want to see how big it can be printed. Foveon skin tones are right. I mean, it is what you see and not a guestimate of the camera. Under correct lighting results are more than awesome. Might give some more later in the week. The amplitude of HL/LL recovery is very large on this imagers, close to what you can do with a D800 (in the HL).

www.hulyssbowman.com/tempo/Lula/Test.tif

For sure, if SIGMA come up one day with a FF sensor ... I think it can be just Wow.

[Phil Indeblanc]

The Sigma SD1 is about $2k or less if you search enough. With the money saved, you can always have a spare.
How would this be a bad investment if it produces for you for at least 2 years? You can adapt just about any lens, I think Sigma even has a lens mount swap service.
I think they made a mistake by not offering the body in a Nik or Can mount, but if it is a good tool, lenses are not a issue.

The only thing is the Dev software. I think they are making improvements that have helped, but other Raw devs are ignoring it. I can understand C1 not interested, as they have their own camera brand.
But I was hoping LR would support it. One of the reasons I haven't got one. I'm not happy about adapting a new software in the mix. Its more than enough as it is.

[eronald]

The Euro price is now 1000 Euros, the price here has been halved.
There is also a very good deal with a bundled lens.

It's a pleasure to be able to make a relevant post

Edmund

The Sigma SD1 is about $2k or less if you search enough. With the money saved, you can always have a spare.
How would this be a bad investment if it produces for you for at least 2 years? You can adapt just about any lens, I think Sigma even has a lens mount swap service.
I think they made a mistake by not offering the body in a Nik or Can mount, but if it is a good tool, lenses are not a issue.

The only thing is the Dev software. I think they are making improvements that have helped, but other Raw devs are ignoring it. I can understand C1 not interested, as they have their own camera brand.
But I was hoping LR would support it. One of the reasons I haven't got one. I'm not happy about adapting a new software in the mix. Its more than enough as it is.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The Foveon is quite a bit different in that it does not use filters for color rendition. This makes it extremely dependent on math. If the camera would deliver a decent quality DNG file it would be helpful for developers, but as it is now, it is just an oddball camera with a small market share that needs a lot of development effort.

Best regards
Erik

The Euro price is now 1000 Euros, the price here has been halved.

Edmund

[Hulyss]

The Sigma SD1 is about $2k or less if you search enough. With the money saved, you can always have a spare.
How would this be a bad investment if it produces for you for at least 2 years? You can adapt just about any lens, I think Sigma even has a lens mount swap service.
I think they made a mistake by not offering the body in a Nik or Can mount, but if it is a good tool, lenses are not a issue.

The only thing is the Dev software. I think they are making improvements that have helped, but other Raw devs are ignoring it. I can understand C1 not interested, as they have their own camera brand.
But I was hoping LR would support it. One of the reasons I haven't got one. I'm not happy about adapting a new software in the mix. Its more than enough as it is.

Hello Phil,

Yes the SD1 came very cheap today (999€ in France) and can be a very good tool. We can shoot tethered and there is a plethora of lenses to use with BUT ... there is no live view and the DP line (who use telecentric lenses) give better results than the SD, IQ wise. That is the SIGMA paradox, as I call it. This is why the DP3m is a good deal (599€ in France) because of stunning glass, live view and simplicity and you can shoot at 1/2000 under flash because of the leaf shutter ... at the end it is very limited (fixed lens) but more flexible than a MFDB (at a light level).

For the software, yes it is a pita. It is slow, but this is JUST on more step in the chain. Just open the files and then only batch export ProPhoto Tiff 16bit and you are done. So for some ppl this one more step is too much but for some it worth it. When you see the files, you know it worth it.

SIGMA should work on a better software to hook the pros. A DP with interchangeable lense would be a very nice tool (If they can up the sensor to APS-H or FF it can be a super bonus). Future will tell. Just imagine that novoflex will jump on the occasion to build many cool things for a mirror-less foveon...

So now, just tell me objectively what do you think about the file I shared at the top of this page, I mean, your first impression.

[jerome_m]

Here we go for DP3m sample. Large file, 80+ Mo (ProPhoto RGB). Simple settings, neutral color mode under flash (Elinchrom + Octa 100cm), no reflector, just a shoot. So you can manipulate it, PP it, and up-size it if you want to see how big it can be printed. Foveon skin tones are right. I mean, it is what you see and not a guestimate of the camera. Under correct lighting results are more than awesome. Might give some more later in the week. The amplitude of HL/LL recovery is very large on this imagers, close to what you can do with a D800 (in the HL).

www.hulyssbowman.com/tempo/Lula/Test.tif

I am sorry, but in my opinion this is a bit overexposed on the skin (can't recover all highlights), does not react very well to processing, shadows are very noisy (but it is only luminance noise) and some bands appear on the top if try to process the file. As to the colors, I suppose that this woman wears make-up, so it is difficult to judge: it looks like make-up foundation color, not skin color.

I mean: it is very, very good for a point and shoot and at present price it is almost a steal. But is shows clear limits and I am not so sure what you are trying to prove with that picture.

[Hulyss]

I am sorry, but in my opinion this is a bit overexposed on the skin (can't recover all highlights), does not react very well to processing, shadows are very noisy (but it is only luminance noise) and some bands appear on the top if try to process the file. As to the colors, I suppose that this woman wears make-up, so it is difficult to judge: it looks like make-up foundation color, not skin color.

I mean: it is very, very good for a point and shoot and at present price it is almost a steal. But is shows clear limits and I am not so sure what you are trying to prove with that picture.

Proving nothing but the sharpness (reality) of the machine. Yes she do have make-up. This is done under very bad lighting, just to see what can do the machine without pp. With good lights... it is just disturbing how good it is on retina display. The file can be uprez by 50% at least and still deliver a lot on A0 prints. As you say, this is a steal !

So, when MF will deliver this clarity at 100% I think nobody will ever complain :p

[Doug Peterson]

The Foveon is quite a bit different in that it does not use filters for color rendition. This makes it extremely dependent on math.

Yes it does. It just uses them stacked vertically into layers rather than distributing into Bayer pattern.

[eronald]

Proving nothing but the sharpness (reality) of the machine. Yes she do have make-up. This is done under very bad lighting, just to see what can do the machine without pp. With good lights... it is just disturbing how good it is on retina display. The file can be uprez by 50% at least and still deliver a lot on A0 prints. As you say, this is a steal !

So, when MF will deliver this clarity at 100% I think nobody will ever complain :p

Actually MF and the Leica M8 both stand enlargement very well.  MF *cameras* are mediocre, but the *backs* are very good very mature tech, inherited from military and space applications. When a Phase back produces good images it makes superb images, I have done 44" wide from 1/4 of the frame of my P45+ with no problems, and there is huge DR. I think this is true of *every* back.

This is not to say bad things about the sigma which appears to be very nice - but many people in this forum have had at least this level in quality for 10 years or so.

Sigma sabotaged the SD1 by overpricing it; I hope at some point they will make larger sensors and provide programming help so their usage spreads.
Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

For the software, yes it is a pita. It is slow, but this is JUST on more step in the chain. Just open the files and then only batch export ProPhoto Tiff 16bit and you are done. So for some ppl this one more step is too much but for some it worth it. When you see the files, you know it worth it.

Batch exporting all captures to 16 bit TIFF before you can do meaningful work on them is a terrible workflow compared to working with native raw files until the final stage. Needlessly large files during the adjustment phase, lose of the reserve dynamic range and flexibility of the underlying raw file (even at 16 bit TIFF you lose data compared to the original raw file).

I'm surprised you'd accept this.

[Doug Peterson]

The file can be uprez by 50% at least and still deliver a lot on A0 prints. As you say, this is a steal! So, when MF will deliver this clarity at 100% I think nobody will ever complain :p

Have you worked with a Phase file in Capture One v7??

It's incredibly sharp at 100% and it uprez's phenomenally well.

Loss of sharpness due to Bayer pattern used to be a big deal. That's just not the case anymore. I'd rate it as 10-15% depending on the subject.

The idea of Sigma advertising the SD1 as a 46mp system is a bad joke.

[eronald]

Yes it does. It just uses them stacked vertically into layers rather than distributing into Bayer pattern.

As I remember, Carver Mead's trick was that light propagates to a different depth in the silicon according to the wavelength. Of course, channel crosstalk will be terrible as the top level sees part of the light which propagates downwards, and light propagating sideways will cause issues which need to be dealt with, I guess. .

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

The only thing is the Dev software. I think they are making improvements that have helped, but other Raw devs are ignoring it. I can understand C1 not interested, as they have their own camera brand.
But I was hoping LR would support it.

Phase One supports nearly all commonly used professional cameras. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Samsung, Leica, Mamiya Leaf, Olympus, Panosonic.

I can't speak for them, but I'm quite sure the reason this camera isn't supported is because it has a very unusal sensor which would require a lot of custom work to support, and there are very few pros using it. Very poor return on investment for their time.

[Doug Peterson]

As I remember, Carver Mead's trick was that light propagates to a different depth in the silicon according to the wavelength. Of course, channel crosstalk will be terrible as the top level sees part of the light which propagates downwards, and light propagating sideways will cause issues which need to be dealt with, I guess.

Literal vs practical definitions aside the vertically stacked layers respond to Red, Blue, and Green respectively (even more technically each layer actually responds to a distribution of wavelengths centered around it's assigned colors).

[eronald]

Have you worked with a Phase file in Capture One v7??

It's incredibly sharp at 100% and it uprez's phenomenally well.

Loss of sharpness due to Bayer pattern used to be a big deal. That's just not the case anymore. I'd rate it as 10-15% depending on the subject.

The idea of Sigma advertising the SD1 as a 46mp system is a bad joke.

Doug,

Camera phones look good when you compare the number of pixels to the price.

The one thing which everyone here prefers to forget is that Sigma is a lens manufacturer, and they "donate" a really good lens with each DP camera; An equivalent lens for an M series Leica or a dSLR or an MF camera  would cost several times the price of the whole DP package.

Edmund

[Iliah]

> vertically stacked layers respond to Red, Blue, and Green

See attached.

[Hulyss]

We are between people who know what we are talking about, that for sure. To not mess around, some of us are very intrigued by this foveon technology. It is not mature, some said this is the future of photography ... So to resume, dear Doug, no I do not accept the whole batch export thing. Simply put, when shooting with a DP (a work, it happen sometimes) the camera is soo tricky that you are obliged to get things right at the very shoot, not really in PP. So when you open the files at home, often you do not need to do anything on the file at the raw level and it is... disturbing. With many camera, even MF, when we import files in whatever raw-developer, we work hard on PP :  that's a fact, from the D700 to the S2, I always cook the files. With the SIGMA oddity, not really: It is all good or all bad. (I agree about the 46MP BS...)

We all seek the perfect Camera/software line for our specialized or generalist work but it do not exist. Even when we put large amount of money, deep in us, even if we do not say it, we are not THAT happy sometimes. The foveon way is kind of masochist way, I'm getting used with it. But I keep a silicon eye on the future of this technology. I will post more in the dedicated thread about foveon especially in monochrome mode.

[eronald]

> vertically stacked layers respond to Red, Blue, and Green

See attached.

Thanks Iliah. A picture is worth a thousand words
Edmund

[synn]

Here we go for DP3m sample. Large file, 80+ Mo (ProPhoto RGB). Simple settings, neutral color mode under flash (Elinchrom + Octa 100cm), no reflector, just a shoot. So you can manipulate it, PP it, and up-size it if you want to see how big it can be printed. Foveon skin tones are right. I mean, it is what you see and not a guestimate of the camera. Under correct lighting results are more than awesome. Might give some more later in the week. The amplitude of HL/LL recovery is very large on this imagers, close to what you can do with a D800 (in the HL).

www.hulyssbowman.com/tempo/Lula/Test.tif

For sure, if SIGMA come up one day with a FF sensor ... I think it can be just Wow.

Thank you for that sample. It's absolutely brilliant and yes, if Sigma ever get around to making a full frame version of this sensor and an interchangable lens version of the DP3m, they are gonna hit it right out of the park.

[jerome_m]

Literal vs practical definitions aside the vertically stacked layers respond to Red, Blue, and Green respectively (even more technically each layer actually responds to a distribution of wavelengths centered around it's assigned colors).

Actually: no. The top layer responds to B+G+R, the middle to G+R and the bottom one to R only.