Improving Epson Ultrachrome K3 print density

[Paul Ozzello]

This is a followup to my previous post about soft proofing. I've been spoiled by the excellent density produced by my Canon Pro9000 (first version) with its dye inks, and the prints from the Epson are disappointing in comparison. I can produce a truly stunning black and white print on the Canon but no matter how hard I try the Epson print just looks flat, veiled; it lacks the depth and dimension of the Canon print. With all the praise the Epsons get I automatically assumed a 7 year newer printer would produce equal or better results.

I've tried applying a curve to reproduce the midtone contrast from the Canon and extending the highlights to compensate for the reduced dynamic range -
I've tried Espon ABW and QTR QuadTone RIP - neither help with density.
I've tried Ilford Gold Fiber Silk - it has improved density but still not on par with the Canon on matte paper.

The first solution gave me the 'best' result but blacks still look too gray.

According to another member (RHPS), I can achieve a density of 1.85 on the Canon using Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308 against 1.57 with the Epson. Is there any other matte/rag/fineart paper that can achieve 1.85 density with the Ultrachrome K3 inks ? What is the 'best' rag type paper to use with pigment inks ?

Could Piezography be a solution ? What density can be achieve by the Cone K7 inks ?

And one last question, :-) if I were to go with a Canon iPf8400 would I hit the same wall with the Lucia EX pigments inks ?


Paul

[hugowolf]

I have never been overly fond of Hahnemuhle 308. much prefering Canson Rag Photographique 310. Epson Hot and Cold Pressed papers also do better with black than the Hahnemuhle paper.

I think you are seeing simialr results to these: http://www.dygartphotography.com/papertestcharts/017hahnfaphotorag2880.html

Brian A

[Paul2660]

You might try increasing the ink density in the print.  This may make up for some of this issues you are seeing.  When printing, ink density is under paper configuration settings in the print dialog for the 9900. I would try increasing it +3 to +5.

Paul Caldwell

[John Chardine]

Would image processing to the soft-proof for the chosen printer/paper not work for you?

[TylerB]

you will not achieve 1.85 K densities with current pigment ink and matte fine art papers, none of that fiddling will get you there. Piezograghy is gorgeous but also in line with other pigment/matte maximum density performance. The only exception to this is the HP, which a master printer friend of mine tells me he can achieve about 1.8 depending on paper.

[Mark D Segal]

And with high-quality gloss/luster papers one can achieve in the range of 2.2~2.4 - a really huge visible difference.

[darlingm]

By the way, I've noticed that high speed mode on my 9900 makes black a tiny bit lighter.  Wasn't much, but wasn't statistically insignificant, either.

[Paul Ozzello]

You might try increasing the ink density in the print.  This may make up for some of this issues you are seeing.  When printing, ink density is under paper configuration settings in the print dialog for the 9900. I would try increasing it +3 to +5.

Paul Caldwell

Brian and Paul, I just bought a pack of the Hot Press Bright and will try tweaking the ink density. The sample Epson prints in-store definately have a greater Dmax than my hahnemuhle prints so I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

[Paul Ozzello]

Would image processing to the soft-proof for the chosen printer/paper not work for you?

That's what I've been doing, Relative Colorimetric, BPC and paper color. The on-screen proof shows the same lack of density I see in the prints. I have the canon soft proof in another tab and applied a curve to the epson proof to try and match the 2 as much as possible. I'm anxious to try out Hot press paper...

[Paul Ozzello]

By the way, I've noticed that high speed mode on my 9900 makes black a tiny bit lighter.  Wasn't much, but wasn't statistically insignificant, either.

That's an interesting point, I did turn off high speed mode but printed at 2880; I noticed that resolution can theoretically have a profound effect on the tone ramp as can be seen on Aaron Dygart's graphs :

Hot press 2880
Hot press 1440

[Paul Ozzello]

I have never been overly fond of Hahnemuhle 308. much prefering Canson Rag Photographique 310. Epson Hot and Cold Pressed papers also do better with black than the Hahnemuhle paper.

I think you are seeing simialr results to these: http://www.dygartphotography.com/papertestcharts/017hahnfaphotorag2880.html

Brian A

That curve looks terrible. If I interpret the graph correctly the Hahnemuhle Photo rag 308 completely blocks up the last 5-6 zones in the shadows. Is that right ?

[NeroMetalliko]

Hello,
With my R3000 (K3VM inks) MK black the best results I was able to get (once I got all the stars and planets correctly aligned... ) are ~1.8 using Epson Hot Press Bright in ABW. On ICC you could still stay around ~1.7, which is very good for a matte paper too.

Using PK black on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk I have reached ~2.5 in ABW (~2.3 on ICC)
and using Hahnemhuele Photo Rag Baryta I have reached ~2.4 in ABW (~2.2 in ICC).
Always printed using max resolution.

Ciao.

Andrea

[hugowolf]

That curve looks terrible. If I interpret the graph correctly the Hahnemuhle Photo rag 308 completely blocks up the last 5-6 zones in the shadows. Is that right ?

Yes, that is right. Increasing the ink load, beyond a certain point, will not increase the the dMax, but simply lower the point at which black point clipping occurs. BPC is the way to go.

Brian A

[Paul Ozzello]

Hello,
With my R3000 (K3VM inks) MK black the best results I was able to get (once I got all the stars and planets correctly aligned... ) are ~1.8 using Epson Hot Press Bright in ABW. On ICC you could still stay around ~1.7, which is very good for a matte paper too.

Using PK black on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk I have reached ~2.5 in ABW (~2.3 on ICC)
and using Hahnemhuele Photo Rag Baryta I have reached ~2.4 in ABW (~2.2 in ICC).
Always printed using max resolution.

Ciao.

Andrea

Hi Andrea, I tried the Hot Press Bright and Dmax is definately better but still less than Canon dye inks. My very scientific tests were done using a black Sharpie :

D(Sharpie) = Canon Dmax,
D(Sharpie) > Epson DMax,

(This test is protected by trademark - please contact me for licensing information)

Has anyone tried Jon Cone's "Ink Thrift" inks on a large format Epson with matte paper ?

 

[John Chardine]

From your comment you seem to suggest that pigment inks should be able to produce the same densities as dyes. Is this a realistic expectation?

[Paul Ozzello]

From your comment you seem to suggest that pigment inks should be able to produce the same densities as dyes. Is this a realistic expectation?

I don't think it is I only have experience with traditional print making in the darkroom and inkjet printing with dye based inks. I didn't do enough research before buying the Epson and hadn't considered the limitations of pigment inks.

[NeroMetalliko]

Is there any other matte/rag/fineart paper that can achieve 1.85 density with the Ultrachrome K3 inks ?

As visible in the attached graph, in my ABW linearization test I have reached 1.81 on Hot Press Bright,
with an amazing linearity and very good neutral tones
(the a*, b* axis scale span on the right is only -5 to 5, so very magnified).
In my humble opinion this is an absolute top-notch performance for a cotton fine-art matte paper.

I don't know the dmax of a black Sharpie and I don't know what kind of results you can get from your Canon dye printer,
you was asking for 1.85 dmax on matte paper and Epson K3 inks and, as said, we have seen you can get a very similar 1.81 value
which is not exactly 1.85 of course, but it's still very close (and probably the maximum one can achieve in this setup).

Now, maybe you can discern in a real print between 1.85 and 1.81 blacks by eye (which probably I cannot)
but I think that this number alone is not enough to characterize a print as "flat and dull":
in my opinion there should be something more substantial in the L* shape in order to justify that sentence
and this has little to do with pure dmax performances alone.

It will be really interesting to see the data of a gray ramp of your Canon dye printer in order to look and compare the L* shape and tone colors, this would be very helpful to better understand what is going under the hood of the Canon dye prints you like so much.

If you have the Lab data of a measured gray ramp (printed in AdobeRGB or sRGB) and you can provide it,
I can try to put them in a graph for a useful comparison.

NOTE: I have some original Piezography test prints made by John Cone on their own paper, but I have never tried to measure the dmax, maybe it could be interesting to know it (and I will try to look), but again, I'm not so sure that the dmax number alone is the only one thing to look for.

Ciao.

Andrea