Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Upper California Coastline  (Read 14976 times)

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2013, 05:00:01 pm »

My, my, you've all been busy while I've been away!
Back to the OP: I was quite curious about your trip through NorCal and up into Washington, Chris. I will have to scan for other posts. I just returned to start perusing the forums and landed here. I think the composition of the OP is not great and cannot see a way to make it better to my eye (ie, cropping or shifting as Russ mentioned). But I do like the attempt at backlighting although there seems to be too much detail lost in shadowed areas, at least on my work monitor. You specifically asked about the color toning and that is the part that I felt was most compelling. I like the blue gray tones contrasted with the sharpness of the rocks; I'd probably work the scene a lot more to find what it was that captured your interest. I cannot see the selective sharpening you reference. I agree with you that a lower perspective would be more interesting. I particularly like the B/W references by cjogo and think that works better when the light (angle, quality, etc) is just not good. JMHO, but I think it helped me with some desert shots I did awhile back.
FWIW, I think there have been many good and critical critiques (and "critiquers") here and I have learned a lot, not just with respect to my own work, but also to watch what is said about other postings.

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2013, 03:41:12 pm »

It would be like me critiquing a surgeon's method of stitching, yet never having actually stitched up anyone myself.

In your analogy, wouldn't the point of critique be the stitching (whether it splits apart, whether it scars), not the method of stitching?

Here wouldn't the point of critique be the photograph, not the method of photographing?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 06:26:24 pm by Isaac »
Logged

Chris Calohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3512
  • Editing Allowed
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2013, 07:46:25 pm »

Perhaps, but only if I had any faith in the critic understanding what he was critiquing based on similar experiences behind the lens...and in this instance I have no faith whatsoever.
Logged
If it Ain't Broke, Leave it Alone; if it is Broke, Fix it; if it's a Maybe, Play With it - Who Knows

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2013, 11:45:52 am »

Perhaps, but only if I had any faith in the critic understanding what he was critiquing based on similar experiences behind the lens...

What does cjogo's "Morley / Brett B&W" remark have to do with experience behind the lens? It has to do with how the images we've seen influence how we see your picture -- the images we've seen, not the images we've made.
Logged

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2013, 11:58:17 am »

But the images we've made tell other people what, if anything, we've learned from the images we've seen, Isaac.

You can see a fairly complete list of the books in my photo library in the bibliography at http://www.russ-lewis.com/Bib/Bib.html. But knowing what images I've seen doesn't tell you a damned thing about whether or not I've learned anything. Only my photographs can tell you that. Unless you're convinced I've actually learned something, rattling my head about somebody else's work is meaningless.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2013, 12:13:41 pm »

But knowing what images I've seen doesn't tell you a damned thing about whether or not I've learned anything. Only my photographs can tell you that.

Your focus is on your photography and what you've learned, shouldn't it be on the other person's photograph and what they've learned?
Logged

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2013, 12:28:35 pm »

Why should I pay any attention at all to criticism from somebody who hasn't learned anything? Before someone's criticism means anything to me I need to know what they've learned. I'll never learn that from what they say, only from pictures they've made.

Why do you fight the idea of posting your pictures, Isaac? Does your self-criticism tell you they're no good? You seem to have a lot to say but nothing to show.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2013, 01:03:44 pm »

It's not really about Isaac showing or not showing, nor is it about Russ having an interesting and enviable library. What it is really about is the utter futility of the exercise known as 'critique', a miserable, pretentious word that doesn't even have the attraction of sounding right.

Nobody has the ability to understand at any deep level what the artist whose work is under the searchlight truly feels or seeks. This precludes meaningful comment on the success or otherwise of the image. Worse, one can never escape the reality that some can do 'art' and some never will have that pleasure, however good a mechanic they learn to be. And that's about it: if it clicks with the viewer it's cool, and if not then it's not.

You can instantly see the problem, can't you? One has introduced the self. That's a filter that no external input can manage without contamination or, at the very least, distortion. So, in the end, critque isn't about the image under the glare of the kliegs, it's about the critic, poor sod.

Some claim to have been helped by the process; better help would come from looking at collected works, at websites and almost any medium other than a chat show like this particular section has to be. Though I never post in this area, I do look and read; I have to say, I learn nothing about photography here, in this specific slot, but lots about people. Not the same thing, though possibly an elephant.

Rob C

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2013, 05:03:16 pm »

Chris seems to have mostly been interested in some technical details, here, which technical details I don't really have an opinion on.

On the subject of critique:

- you don't have to be a great photographer to be a great critic, but it probably helps your criticism if you can find your way around a camera
- I am a much better critic than I am a photographer
- of course criticism is both possible and useful, Rob C notwithstanding

I can tell you my reaction to a picture, and if you put my reaction together with a dozen others, you've learned something about how people tend to react to your picture. That's useful if you're making pictures for other people to look at.

I can ALSO take your picture apart a bit in terms of one theory or another of how pictures can be constructed, which may or may not serve to explain why people tend to react to your picture one way or another.

This one, for instance, feels touristy mainly because there's too much excess junk in the frame and the framing itself is haphazard and feels opportunistic. There's a potentially interesting line of rocks, which cannot decide if it's vertical or diagonal in the frame (problem #1), the point of view feels like it's from a highway pullover which makes one suspect WHY the line of rocks is not very fortuituous and clear (problem #2) and there's a bunch of extraneous junk in the frame that takes attention away from the main elements of visual interest (problem #3 -- see also problem #2).

Chris knows perfectly well this shot ain't all that and I think he even knows why.

Sorry I can't help on the selective sharpening business, it's stuff I don't much care about, so I just cannot bear to look closely enough and to try to form an opinion.
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24074
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2013, 05:22:35 pm »

Well done Andrew, and thanks!

Q.E.D.

Rob C

Isaac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3123
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2013, 02:24:00 pm »

Why should I pay any attention at all to criticism from somebody who hasn't learned anything?

Because they see what the things you've learned prevent you from seeing.


Why do you fight the idea of posting your pictures, Isaac?

Because I have no interest in your "pat on the back" and to deny your bullying is its own reward.
Logged

Chris Calohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3512
  • Editing Allowed
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2013, 08:36:14 pm »

At the risk of being banned, BS!
Logged
If it Ain't Broke, Leave it Alone; if it is Broke, Fix it; if it's a Maybe, Play With it - Who Knows

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2013, 08:58:13 pm »

Isaac isn't the first poster to make claims of bullying here, and probably won't be the last.

I've never actually seen any actual bullying, though.
Logged

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2013, 10:30:44 pm »

Depends on how thin your skin is, Andrew. If asking to see some pictures is bullying then I confess.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Mjean

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 59
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2013, 03:47:52 pm »

I do not post regularly on this forum, but if you are looking for an honest and unbiased critique, here goes:

I find the colour balance is off, the sand looks way too blue.  Although the overall composition is not bad I feel that it really could have been great if a bit more time had been spent on it.  The rocks seem small and insignificant, shooting them from a lower angle would have been better.  There is too much being cut off at the edges of the frame - the little rock on the left hand side and the boulder on the right hand side.  On the lower right hand corner, there is too much garbage, detracts from the picture itself.  The scene seems squeezed, for me there is just not enough space around the frame. 

I also feel the same way as a few of the other members have mentioned at other times, what is the point of posting a picture and wanting a critique if all you want is a pat on the back.  Sometimes a member deserves a pat on the back for a great shot, but when a shot is just mediocre, is honesty what is important or not?  There are plenty of sites out there that will just say Great Shot to anything that is posted.  500px used to be a great site, but now it is just as bad as most of the other sites.  I was hoping that this forum would be different but I am not so sure right now.





Logged

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2013, 03:56:51 pm »

...what is the point of posting a picture and wanting a critique if all you want is a pat on the back.  Sometimes a member deserves a pat on the back for a great shot, but when a shot is just mediocre, is honesty what is important or not?
+1

Chris Calohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3512
  • Editing Allowed
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2013, 05:10:00 pm »

It was never about getting a nice pat on the back for a bad shot, it was a response to a critic who doesn't post his own work. I'll take a good hit any day of the week and feel I learn from most of them. My complaint and it will stand regardless of the artistic merit, anytime someone posts an image on this forum, it deserves at least a comment or two. Nobody learns squat from silence except that a group as a whole doesn't like the work...the why left to speculation. I don't comment on every image3 unless there hasn't been a response to one in which case I feel a responsibility to provide some kind of feedback. Mostly I try to be good, but there are some images like this one which just fall short of niceties..that's fine, but as many have including yourself, why is a great help.
Logged
If it Ain't Broke, Leave it Alone; if it is Broke, Fix it; if it's a Maybe, Play With it - Who Knows

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2013, 05:56:53 pm »

I do not post regularly on this forum, but if you are looking for an honest and unbiased critique, here goes:

I find the colour balance is off, the sand looks way too blue.  Although the overall composition is not bad I feel that it really could have been great if a bit more time had been spent on it.  The rocks seem small and insignificant, shooting them from a lower angle would have been better.  There is too much being cut off at the edges of the frame - the little rock on the left hand side and the boulder on the right hand side.  On the lower right hand corner, there is too much garbage, detracts from the picture itself.  The scene seems squeezed, for me there is just not enough space around the frame.  

I also feel the same way as a few of the other members have mentioned at other times, what is the point of posting a picture and wanting a critique if all you want is a pat on the back.  Sometimes a member deserves a pat on the back for a great shot, but when a shot is just mediocre, is honesty what is important or not?  There are plenty of sites out there that will just say Great Shot to anything that is posted.  500px used to be a great site, but now it is just as bad as most of the other sites.  I was hoping that this forum would be different but I am not so sure right now.

If you post something interesting but technically imperfect you'll get plenty of criticism. If you post something that's basically a technically perfect snapshot one of two things will happen: (1) Somebody may give you a pat on the back, just to avoid saying "nice tourist shot" or (2) You'll watch the picture descend and disappear from the main page without comment.

Nobody wants to inflict pain, and there's nothing wrong with a pat on the back when something gets posted that calls for a pat on the back but not serious congratulations. But you'll find that most critiques have to do with crops, color changes, sharpening, and other insignificant technical points. If that doesn't bother you then you're on the right forum.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 11:00:59 am by RSL »
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2013, 08:54:08 am »

If you post something interesting but technically imperfect you'll get plenty of criticism. If you post something that's basically a technically perfect snapshot one of two things will happen: (1) Somebody may give you a pat on the back, just to avoid saying "nice tourist shot" or (2) You'll watch the picture descend and disappear from the main page without comment.

Nobody wants to inflict pain, and there's nothing wrong with a pat on the back when something gets posted that calls for a pat on the back but not serious congratulations. But you'll find that most critiques have to do with crops, color changes, sharpening, and other insignificant technical points. It that doesn't bother you then you're on the right forum.

+1

amolitor

  • Guest
Re: Upper California Coastline
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2013, 09:23:56 am »

This IS the only forum I have run across where you've got a fair shot at critique that goes beyond the photographically technical. You might get some feedback on composition and the structure of the frame, you're pretty likely to get simple "this is how I react" feedback.

Most people here seem to assume that the technical details are all deliberate, thankfully, so they're not constantly telling you that your choices are wrong. You might get some feedback to the effect that your choices have such and such an effect.

It's nice!
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up