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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 193301 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #640 on: October 27, 2014, 05:02:24 pm »

My own take: Snowden is an absolutist with an absolutist's simpletonistic worldview who acted at least in part out of arrogance and with more than a little Savior Complex thrown into the mix…and yet who did something that I judge, on the whole, to be beneficial.

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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #641 on: October 28, 2014, 02:38:31 am »

I have a simple view as someone who signed more NSA disclosure agreements over my 20+ years than I could ever hope to count.  This is very black and white.   First, remember the guy was a grunt level worker without the education or experience to adequately judge the information to which he had access.. and from what I understand his access wasn't because he was working on the projects, but rather maintaining the systems that held the information.  He was a young nobody who saw something and reacted most likely without much thought of the consequences.  He also had multiple avenues to take his concerns, but instead he chose to commit treason.   

What he did isn't about the bigger picture this has turned into.  This is about an employee who signed disclosure national security agreements and subsequently stole NSA data and released at least some of it and sought asylum with the worst possible country he could choose.    If you think the Russians gave him sanctuary out of the bottoms of their hearts then you're naive. 

Snowden stole more classified data and has done more damage than any other 20 spies in our history.  The only control we have for keeping our classified material classified.. is punishment for offences ranging from negligence to treason..

Again, it's not whether you think the material should have been made public, that's a decision made by the leaders YOU and I voted in as part of our representative republic.. we voted to give them both the authority and right to prosecute those who break their agreements.

Would so many people feel so good about this guy if he had a morale issue with.. say nuclear weapons, ship and submarine movements, or how about the SEC access codes?
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shawnino

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #642 on: October 28, 2014, 08:28:24 am »


Snowden stole more classified data and has done more damage than any other 20 spies in our history. 

While I agree with most of what you post, that statement is unproven.
 
Data perhaps, but in terms of damage, in our own lifetime I'll nominate Aldrich Ames. Ames singlehandedly wiped out the West's human intelligence network inside the Soviet Union. That will take an awful lot of beating, no matter what's on Snowden's thumb drives.

Going back further, if someone wants to nominate an atomic bomb spy, argue whether or not Alger Hiss was a spy, please feel free. In our time, compared to Ames, Snowden's a schoolboy.
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spidermike

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #643 on: October 28, 2014, 05:00:37 pm »

Quote
Again, it's not whether you think the material should have been made public, that's a decision made by the leaders YOU and I voted in as part of our representative republic.. we voted to give them both the authority and right to prosecute those who break their agreements.

Surely the issue there is that those same people are the ones (in Snoden's view) failing in oversight so what possible confidence could he have in leaving it up to them??!
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #644 on: October 28, 2014, 05:12:12 pm »

While I agree with most of what you post, that statement is unproven.
 
Data perhaps, but in terms of damage, in our own lifetime I'll nominate Aldrich Ames. Ames singlehandedly wiped out the West's human intelligence network inside the Soviet Union. That will take an awful lot of beating, no matter what's on Snowden's thumb drives.

Going back further, if someone wants to nominate an atomic bomb spy, argue whether or not Alger Hiss was a spy, please feel free. In our time, compared to Ames, Snowden's a schoolboy.
Ya, Ames was a case study we had to go over many times.   I should have said he has the potential to do more damage with the data he stole. 
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #645 on: October 28, 2014, 05:18:34 pm »

Surely the issue there is that those same people are the ones (in Snoden's view) failing in oversight so what possible confidence could he have in leaving it up to them??!

The system is all we have, and it's arguably the best in the world.  The integrity of the system is dependent on citizens working within the system, not outside it.  We didn't elect a relatively inexperienced and uneducated grunt worker at the NSA to make this decision.  Unfortunately we elected our President to do this.  Still, we don't pack up our bags and head to our enemies.  We hunker down and work inside the system to get someone better next time.  This is our system.  Otherwise we'd be like Thailand with more than 20 coups in the last 49 years or whatever those numbers are.  They don't fully believe in their system, they make excuses for working outside it, and the military moves in and it ends up even worse.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #646 on: October 28, 2014, 05:27:53 pm »

... a relatively inexperienced and uneducated grunt worker at the NSA...

And yet he managed to steal enormous amount of data from under the noses of oh, so highly experienced and educated professionals.

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #647 on: October 28, 2014, 10:42:14 pm »

If he believed the government was doing unconstitutional things, he should have stayed in America and defended his position.
 

I was always saying that those Quakers were just totally immoral to come here - must be stayin and defending their position... and Jewish people, how dared they to escape EE instead of standing their ground there... you logic is very solid - who cares that he 'd not get a fair trial w/ secret evidences and witnesses...


Instead, he copped out to Russia to be used by others against his country all the while gathering fame and glory for himself. 

may be you need to educate yourself about the matter ? he did not "copped out to Russia" - he got stuck there because of US fed. gov't actions preventing him from travel... and what was the country he went first ? ... BTW about some nice gentlemen really copping to America - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29795749
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #648 on: October 28, 2014, 10:47:16 pm »

If you think the Russians gave him sanctuary out of the bottoms of their hearts then you're naive. 
and why do you think that we did not have that already for years from our boys  ;) ... in fact we are not happy w/ Snowden because he makes our work more difficult... idiots in NSA now started to watch who is downloading what  ;D
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #649 on: October 29, 2014, 12:46:21 am »

And yet he managed to steal enormous amount of data from under the noses of oh, so highly experienced and educated professionals.

You're kidding right?  No skill needed past a basic understanding of whatever OS they're using.  The security of these places is mostly dependent on the trust factor, screening during the security clearance process, psychological evaluations, and the all great deterrent of punishment.  What you're implying is that a employee at a coca-cola bottling plant couldn't find a Mr. Pibb (okay, tougher now that they're discontinued) if security was tight.. which is ludicrous.  Once in the plant an employee has every opportunity to drink themselves into obesity..

It's funny.. when I first was exposed to this stuff portable magnetic media wasn't yet mainstream..  geez, our first hard drive on our Streamliner com system in the late 80's was bigger than a really large washing machine and it was only 10mb.. I think 16 platters.  But soon thereafter PC's and 360k floppies (all tempest approved of course) where coming on line and they knew security could never keep up with the demand for moving or storing data.. and apparently it still can't.  It's just the nature of the beast.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:50:32 am by Steve Weldon »
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #650 on: October 29, 2014, 12:56:34 am »

and why do you think that we did not have that already for years from our boys  ;) ... in fact we are not happy w/ Snowden because he makes our work more difficult... idiots in NSA now started to watch who is downloading what  ;D

One day we might find that to be true.. but historically Russia is way behind on the technology front, somewhat ahead on the HUMINT end..
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #651 on: October 29, 2014, 09:02:18 am »

It's funny.. when I first was exposed to this stuff portable magnetic media wasn't yet mainstream..  geez, our first hard drive on our Streamliner com system in the late 80's was bigger than a really large washing machine and it was only 10mb.. I think 16 platters.  But soon thereafter PC's and 360k floppies (all tempest approved of course) where coming on line and they knew security could never keep up with the demand for moving or storing data.. and apparently it still can't.  It's just the nature of the beast.

Indeed, but then collecting more and more data, hoping to eventually find something 'useful', only creates bigger haystacks to find a few needles. It is also more costly, and harder to secure from unwanted access, with little gains.

Cheers,
Bart
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #652 on: October 29, 2014, 11:07:26 am »

Indeed, but then collecting more and more data, hoping to eventually find something 'useful', only creates bigger haystacks to find a few needles. It is also more costly, and harder to secure from unwanted access, with little gains.

Cheers,
Bart

I remember the gains as being significant.  Some of the brightest minds in the world work in the puzzle palace doing just what you describe, finding needles.  I've had the pleasure of meeting some of these people, they're on an entirely different level.  Almost savant like in their skills and ability to write one-off algorithms in search of that special needle.. 

My guess and I'm just guessing at this.. is the NSA is at it's best when such people are available, and lost in a big wind when without.   In one case you have someone very bright custom tuning not only the searches but also the collections.. and in the other just operators using their past work trying to get lucky. 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #653 on: October 29, 2014, 11:21:22 am »

I remember the gains as being significant.

You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart
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Telecaster

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #654 on: October 29, 2014, 02:22:38 pm »

From the New York Review of Books, written by David Cole:

"In their extraordinary revelations about what the NSA and its secret programs have been doing, Snowden’s leaks have shown the precariousness of privacy today. But Citizenfour (a documentary film centered on Snowden) also demonstrates, unwittingly, that we are part of the problem. We have chosen to broadcast our lives. Whether we can preserve some semblance of privacy from the state when we have surrendered all semblance of privacy to the private sector remains to be seen. It is not impossible. Rules can be crafted that limit government access to information that private companies have, on the ground that government access to such information poses a much greater risk. And as Europe has shown, it is possible to limit by law what the private sector can do with the personal data it gathers about us."

-Dave-
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #655 on: October 29, 2014, 02:53:45 pm »

We have chosen to broadcast our lives.
indeed, didn't mama teach you not to wear a short skirt ...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #656 on: October 29, 2014, 05:06:07 pm »

You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart
The needle in the haystack(s) problem is very real in the pharmaceutical industry where we want to better understand very rare adverse drug reactions.  Compounds get approved in the US based on a small number of patients in clinical trials and the 1 in 10,000 rare event (which is actually a fairly frequent one when the drug goes on the market) is often not seen.  The issue of sifting through a lot of chaff to get the one wheat kernel is tough.  Back in 2005-07 I managed a project to improve the way that we sort through large heterogeneous databases to improve the S/N ratio.  I was able to get a $20M project off the ground and today the results are tangible.  We did a really neat thing by creating some synthetic databases with buried signals and opening up a competition to all comers for better search algorithms.  IIRC we had over 100 applicants ranging from high school nerds to CS faculty members and awarded 2-3 cash prizes.

Alan
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #657 on: October 29, 2014, 07:48:18 pm »

You are talking about quality. However, the question is, how are bigger haystacks beneficial (e.g. think about the Boston bombers, intelligence was available but; not acted upon, or being busy with other needle searches), and is it legal (unless the premise has become that everybody is guilty until proven innocent ...)? 'Solve' it by building even bigger haystacks?

Cheers,
Bart

I really don't think it's a haystack or a needle problem in regards to your references.  My someone educated but more opinionated guess is it has more to do with politics.  Historically when it comes to spying.. legality isn't considered.  The thing about spying.. is secrecy.  You don't spy and tell.  You put on a straight face and only use the information when you must.. and when it can't backtrack.  You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing.  When you look at the bigger picture of spying vs. diplomacy vs usefulness.. you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.  And after all these months he's had to think about it, apparently he still isn't bright enough to get it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 07:50:53 pm by Steve Weldon »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #658 on: October 29, 2014, 08:10:43 pm »

... You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing....

Right... after executing dozens of their own, who spied for CIA, thanks to Ames.

Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #659 on: October 29, 2014, 09:36:44 pm »

Right... after executing dozens of their own, who spied for CIA, thanks to Ames.

And so the story goes...   But think about it.  I mentioned backtracking.  Do you think dozens of moles could have been executed without major investigations going on, bells ringing, and eventually pointing back to the source?   Its possible and of course I know no different, but I would think it highly unlikely.
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