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Author Topic: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update  (Read 122521 times)

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #100 on: June 02, 2013, 11:07:09 am »

Simon, actually I don't really care to comment, because there is a level of thought and discourse below which I think it's a waste of time and in fact demeaning to be engaged. However, any one participating in web forums needs to bear a thick skin and be prepared to deal with any level of nonsense (or let me more generously say "misapprehension") thrown-up so I shall, just for clarity, respond. I can't support data I haven't seen and therefore not understood; it would be highly unprofessional. So NO, there is no propensity to support Adobe's data. However, the CNet article says enough about the statistical *methodology* (speaking generously here) to know off-the-bat that it's garbage. I hope that clear's up the issue for you.

Mark, I whole heartedly I agree with you about the "misapprehension" although it does give folk a chance to get things off their chests.

Just out of more general interest, if you haven't already seen this already, you (and others) might be interested in the work of Dr W. Edwards Deming; a former statistician who advised the Japanese after WW2 and helped them turn around their industry.  Dr Deming calls into question much of the statistical methodology of business, industry and government describing an over reliance on flawed statistics and statistical methodology for example, learning to be sceptical about the provenance of the numbers.  You have rightly been sceptical of the provenance of the numbers of the survey but I think it is entirely right to be equally sceptical about the provenance of Adobe's numbers; after all, they too have a point to prove.

For those who are interested in reading more about Dr Deming and what he taught a good starter is a book called 'Four Days with Dr. Deming A Strategy for Modern Methods of Management'  (William J. Latzko and David M. Saunders).  I highly recommend it (and I have no commercial interest in same).  He was teaching up until his death in 1993 and the institute he founded continues his work today.  He was nominated for the Nobel Prize.

Apologies, getting slightly off-topic here !
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #101 on: June 02, 2013, 11:12:13 am »

for example, learning to be sceptical about the provenance of the numbers........

Yes indeed Simon, Statistics 101 - GIGO. (For those not in the know - Garbage In, Garbage Out.)  :-) Most of us who deal with any kind of data on a professional basis need to be well aware of this problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #102 on: June 02, 2013, 11:19:23 am »

.........  Highly unlikely that they would allow users to cancel their subscriptions while keeping their current applications fully functional albeit frozen in time.  How would that be functionally different from a conventional perpetual license upgrade? If they did that people could buy a subscription, install the applications, and then the next month cancel, effectively getting a perpetually licensed product for pennies on the dollar of what has been the normal boxed-product price.

Steve, yes, but there is a simple fix to this problem - if Adobe chooses to go this route to keep us happy. It would be this: you subscribe for a set contract period, let us say 18 months, after which you get to keep your current version in fully functional form free of charge if you were to unsubscribe (this would be akin to what we now have on the erstwhile traditional 18 month upgrade cycle, except that after a year the price will be equivalently twice as high so eventually Adobe still comes out way ahead). If you unsubscribe before the contract period is up, it is premature termination and you pay a penalty to keep a functional license for the version you are last using. People who keep subscribed would keep getting all the latest updates, so the incentive to remain subscribed remains for as long as people think there is value-added doing so.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #103 on: June 02, 2013, 11:43:19 am »

True story.  Slightly off-topic, but true.

Night exterior, Eureka Dunes, CA.  Last month, an hour after sunset.

I've just completed a very satisfactory sunset shoot in the dunes and I'm making supper for myself and my travelling companions, my quadriplegic pal and his service dog.

A red jeep rolls up in the darkness and parks nearby.  It's one of those rentals that you see all over Death Valley.  A photographer emerges, gathers up his gear and disappears into the night.

"I wonder what he's up to?" I muse to my supper companions.

A half hour or so later, he re-appears.  "How'd you make out?", I ask as he passes our campsite.

"Not good", he says.  "I got here too late."

No kidding. 

We got to chatting and learn that he's staying in Furnace Creek, several hours away.  We also learn that he's woefully unprepared for life in Death Valley, lacking so much as a drop of water, let alone a map.  He gratefully accepted our offer of water, of which he drank copiously.  He wouldn't stay for supper, though.  From looking at our maps he'd realized just how far it was back to the hotel and was anxious to leave.  We actually tried to convince him to spend the night at the dunes, it being a safer alternative than the nighttime traverse of the empty, twisting, narrow mountain roads back to his hotel, but no.

He was an engaging conversationalist and I asked him what he did for a living.

"Oh, I'm in IT.  I work for Adobe managing their cloud services."
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Isaac

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2013, 12:42:00 pm »

To ship has been used for decades to reflect "Release Date"

Yes, I know :-)

According Webster's, the verb "ship" is used to describe the physical displacement of goods over a distance, to "transport commercially"

intransitive verb "4 : to be sent for delivery <the order will ship soon>" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ship

In the case of software, an electronic file sent to a computer network from where it may be downloaded by customers.

Merriam-Webster provides these appropriate examples:
- "Your order is expected to ship soon."
- "The company will ship its new software next month."
- "The software will ship next month."
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 01:12:21 pm by Isaac »
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CoyoteButtes

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2013, 05:28:43 pm »

Peter, the Eureka Dunes story is hysterical. Exactly the mentality that resulted in the current Compulsory Cloud policy.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2013, 06:11:45 pm »

In the case of software, an electronic file sent to a computer network from where it may be downloaded by customers.

Merriam Webster doesn't say this, can you point out where it does?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. Other dictionaries also reference the moving of physical products.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 06:41:59 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Isaac

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #107 on: June 02, 2013, 06:17:23 pm »

In the case of software, an electronic file sent to a computer network from where it may be downloaded by customers.
Merriam Webster doesn't say this, can you point out where it does?

That's why it isn't in quotation marks.

You seem intent on demonstrating a lack of familiarity with an American-English usage that is commonplace. No doubt you have your reasons.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 06:23:20 pm by Isaac »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #108 on: June 02, 2013, 07:00:22 pm »

You seem intent on demonstrating a lack of familiarity with an American-English usage that is commonplace.

?
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kirkt

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #109 on: June 03, 2013, 11:39:36 am »

I can only guess that some of you may have received an email today from the third-party marketing research firm that sent out the email link to the Adobe survey last week.  The email I received informed me that, "Due to a problem with programming, you were not asked one of the questions correctly."

Priceless.

Anyway, the question that was not "asked correctly" - i.e., the follow up that Adobe has decided is probably important given the survey data they received, is attached below.

Fun, as always.  I put an X in the "5" box for all items.  One can only imagine what on Earth is going on in that corporate HQ....

kirk
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:42:04 am by kirkt »
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Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #110 on: June 03, 2013, 11:45:03 am »

Is that for real ? really ??

Priceless
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Rob Reiter

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #111 on: June 03, 2013, 11:49:37 am »

Not necessarily so. Adobe could require a minimum subscription time and/or a purchase fee when I choose to drop out of the subscription model.

...Highly unlikely that they would allow users to cancel their subscriptions while keeping their current applications fully functional albeit frozen in time.  How would that be functionally different from a conventional perpetual license upgrade? If they did that people could buy a subscription, install the applications, and then the next month cancel, effectively getting a perpetually licensed product for pennies on the dollar of what has been the normal boxed-product price.
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kirkt

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #112 on: June 03, 2013, 11:55:43 am »

Is that for real ? really ??

Priceless

It is for real.  Unless someone from Evans Research Online is messing with me.  Because we all enjoy reading way too much into these things, I find it fascinating that the survey firm even needed to explain why I was being sent the additional question.  I mean, a simple, "Hey Kirk, thanks for participating in the survey - we have one follow up we'd like you to answer if you could please spare us the time.  Greatly appreciate you thoughts."

The excuse is totally unnecessary and, in the current state of mistrust many folks have developed towards Adobe, I can only imagine how it is being (mis)interpreted.

Still, at least they finally asked the only really important set of questions.  Better late than never.

kirk
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 12:00:31 pm by kirkt »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #113 on: June 03, 2013, 11:59:36 am »

Not necessarily so. Adobe could require a minimum subscription time and/or a purchase fee when I choose to drop out of the subscription model.


Indeed, pretty much as I suggested in reply 102 above. If you and I can think of this, perhaps the senior management of Adobe could do likewise; I'd like to see feedback on why such a scheme would NOT be workable and suitable.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #114 on: June 03, 2013, 12:06:37 pm »

I'd like to see feedback on why such a scheme would NOT be workable and suitable.

Well ... if Adobe offered such an exit option ... they would no longer receive their monthly stipend from you for CC ... The executives at Adobe don't want users to ever stop paying for the use of the software ... they're just shocked and surprised so many folks fail to recognize the "innovation" of the CC licensing model ...
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Isaac

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #115 on: June 03, 2013, 01:16:45 pm »

But apparently Creative Suite users in a Cnet survey, said they loathe Adobe's subscriptions - as only 8% currently intend to upgrade.

I asked about the cnet survey and there was a missing chart.

fwiw "Will Adobe CS6 users stay with it or switch to a Creative Cloud subscription?"

"Of 740" "self-selected respondents":
- 10.8% "Stay on CS6 but eventually move to Creative Cloud"
- 13.2% "I don't know"
- 76% "Stay on CS6 and never move to Creative Cloud"
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:19:02 pm by Isaac »
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Steve House

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #116 on: June 03, 2013, 01:59:04 pm »

Not necessarily so. Adobe could require a minimum subscription time and/or a purchase fee when I choose to drop out of the subscription model.

If so, how does that differ from the current perpetual licensing model, assuming with the present model one downloads the software upgrades via the web instead of bringing home a boxed product from a brick-and-mortar store?  Adobe (and Microsoft and others) are trying to steer their products away from being a "pay us once and use it until you choose to replace it" item and turn them into products that generate a continuous ongoing revenue stream for as long as we use them.  I'm not happy about it and I think it's a mistake but any solution to our complaints are clearly going to have to be consistent with that business strategy.

Adobe has clearly lost sight of the difference between sales and marketing.  With sales you design and build a product and then convince potential customers that they need it.  With marketing, you find out what the customers already want and then design and build a product that fulfills that need.  I don't recall anyone ever asking me if I'd prefer to rent software versus paying once for a license to use for as long as I wanted it.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 02:12:01 pm by Steve House »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #117 on: June 03, 2013, 02:06:01 pm »

Guys, there's really a relatively simple psychology to all of this. If Adobe were to offer an acceptable "out" from the subscription process (i.e. one that allows us to keep the latest version we're using operational on some terms or other), we are comfortable, so we subscribe without further ado. Then what's the bargain: the deal is that we keep paying as long as they keep innovating. If they keep coming up with stuff we like, we stay subscribed because we want it. If they fail, we're gone. As long as they have confidence that they can continue enticing us to stay hooked, this should be a no-brainer for them, and the maximum likelihood is that most of us will sign-up under those conditions and we will stay hooked.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #118 on: June 03, 2013, 03:03:15 pm »

Guys, there's really a relatively simple psychology to all of this. If Adobe were to offer an acceptable "out" from the subscription process (i.e. one that allows us to keep the latest version we're using operational on some terms or other), we are comfortable, so we subscribe without further ado. Then what's the bargain: the deal is that we keep paying as long as they keep innovating. If they keep coming up with stuff we like, we stay subscribed because we want it. If they fail, we're gone. As long as they have confidence that they can continue enticing us to stay hooked, this should be a no-brainer for them, and the maximum likelihood is that most of us will sign-up under those conditions and we will stay hooked.

I couldn't agree with you more Mark ... but it's the folks at Adobe who earn salaries in the millions and own several hundred thousand shares of their own stock you need to convince ... They ... want a licensing model that pays perpetually, regardless of what features they develop and implement (or how timely they appear) ... if they give users an opt out avenue ... it defeats the whole purpose for the forced CC licensing model ...

Like has been said before, the opt out plan that we all would find acceptable ... is no different than the perpetual licensing model at the end of the day ... They have said in this most recent blog post that CC is here to stay. In my mind, even if they would come up with some sort of relatively acceptable compromise ... how could we users ever trust that they would not pull an even more detrimental policy change in the future? For that reason, I don't think I could ever again invest in their software with any sort of confidence that I wouldn't be throwing good money after bad.

Yes, it would be quite easy for Adobe to remedy the situation ... though, you are preaching to the choir ... your message is sound, however, those that need to hear it and can apply it's logic to their business model don't seem very receptive to listening.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe - Creative Cloud Update
« Reply #119 on: June 03, 2013, 03:10:54 pm »

... your message is sound, however, those that need to hear it and can apply it's logic to their business model don't seem very receptive to listening.

I think this is that what we need to wait a bit and see.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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