Photoshop - what stage to soft proof/when to edit for colour shift?

[I Simonius]

A complete novice here and with much trepidation have finally got round to trying to print colour
(using Ps CS4 + Imageprint 8, PPC Mac on 10.4.11, I shoot in RAW and open my images in 16 bit ProPhoto, into Photoshop, after basic adjustments in LR or ACR)

I have put the profile for my chosen paper (via Imageprint profile manager) into photoshop and chosen that under proof setup. I notice a dramatic color change: from orange/red to magenta in the strongly (orange/red) coloured area of the image

A version I saved to sRGB as a jpeg doesn't appear to shift colour (noticably) when I turn on soft proofing.

So what does this tell me and what should I do? Should I now re-edit the image so the softproofed (magenta) version looks as I wish, should I have done that right at the outset of opening the image instead of after hours of PP, is there something I'm missing?

thanks

[attached images are screengrabs]

[I Simonius]

nobody knows or perhaps is the question unclear?

[Tony Jay]

Hi,

It would be useful to tell us what printer and what paper you are using.
While many "canned" profiles are very good it is possible that this one is a lemon.
It is also possible that this paper is a 'cool' (opposite to 'warm') paper and perhaps responsible for the shift that you have observed.

However, all this is mere speculation without the facts.
You may also try downloading a profile directly from the paper manufacturer that corresponds to the printer that you are using and see what that gives you.

Tony Jay

[I Simonius]

Printer is Epson 3880 I am using imagepprint RIP and using imageprint's profiles, downloaded from their server specifically for the paper in question Ilford GFS

[Tony Jay]

Hi again.

If memory serves this particular manufacturers profile is not so good.
However it is probably better that those who use Ilford GFS regularly comment on this.
Nonetheless in this case a custom profile may be the best answer.

Tony Jay

[jrsforums]

Couple things...

GFS is a warmish paper.  EVen if it were a cool paper, it would not cause a shift in  the red on a pigment ink.

While one might question Ilford profiles (though I have not found them to be dramatically off on the 3880 or 4900), the OP is using the ImagePrint RIP profiles, which I assume were created by Imageprint.

I would suggest you get with ImagePrint's support people to ensure you have the setup correct.  That would be my first guess after seeing such a dramatic shift.....though that does no rule out other factors as it is difficult to remote troubleshoot with partial info....being on the phone or chat with IP should help work that through.

[digitaldog]

Try printing the same image without using IP or it's profiles and process. Use Photoshop and the Epson driver. Same issue (more or less)?

[jrsforums]

Try printing the same image without using IP or it's profiles and process. Use Photoshop and the Epson driver. Same issue (more or less)?

Good idea, Andrew.

Further...after  trying what DD suggest, download Ilford's 3880 profile for GFS....see how that works.  Then you can compare to the IP results.

John

[stefohl]

So what does this tell me and what should I do? Should I now re-edit the image so the softproofed (magenta) version looks as I wish, should I have done that right at the outset of opening the image instead of after hours of PP, is there something I'm missing?

thanks

[attached images are screengrabs]

I tried the same thing with your image and with the profile for the Ilford paper. I couldn't see the same colour shift that your screen grabs showed. Are you shure you tried the daylight profile. ImagePrint profiles comes in different flavors, created for daylight, tungsten and fluorescent lighting. With a saturated red color, like the one in your image, this can make a difference. For soft proofing, I always prefer to use the daylight profile. If I know that the print will be shown under another lighting condition, I then change to that profile when I print.

[Tony Jay]

Stefan you may well have hit on the actual issue.
Andrew's suggestion will probably prove the point.

Tony Jay

[I Simonius]

Thank you all for your thoughts

I embarrasingly admit that the reason I got imageprint is because the whole process of printing sends shivvers up my spine, to attemtping through photoshop etc is something I'd rater not get involved with if possible

I have been thinking about this and really do wonder whether there isnt a simpler explanation, because for exampele the 8bit jpeg does not make this huge shift when I soft proof it ofr drag it into imageprint application, unlike the 16bit version e.g. have I done something daft when setting the assigning or converting the colour space?

Perhaps this will shed some light on things : the original was pretty bland so I converted to LAB via IMAGE>MODE>LAB color, once I had finished with changing the colours I reverted it back to RGB, also via IMAGE>MODE>RGB, being unsure of quite how to go about this I also ( I think) went to EDIT>CONVERT TO PROFILE and set it to the paper profile

I got pretty confused at one point  and may hav gone back and forth making different settings to see if it made any difference

Perhaps someone could advise me what the seetings SHOULD be and what the correct process is for chnaging from one colur mode to another etc

Sorry for all the hassle

[jrsforums]

Thank you all for your thoughts

I embarrasingly admit that the reason I got imageprint is because the whole process of printing sends shivvers up my spine, to attemtping through photoshop etc is something I'd rater not get involved with if possible

I have been thinking about this and really do wonder whether there isnt a simpler explanation, because for exampele the 8bit jpeg does not make this huge shift when I soft proof it ofr drag it into imageprint application, unlike the 16bit version e.g. have I done something daft when setting the assigning or converting the colour space?

Perhaps this will shed some light on things : the original was pretty bland so I converted to LAB via IMAGE>MODE>LAB color, once I had finished with changing the colours I reverted it back to RGB, also via IMAGE>MODE>RGB, being unsure of quite how to go about this I also ( I think) went to EDIT>CONVERT TO PROFILE and set it to the paper profile

I got pretty confused at one point  and may hav gone back and forth making different settings to see if it made any difference

Perhaps someone could advise me what the seetings SHOULD be and what the correct process is for chnaging from one colur mode to another etc

Sorry for all the hassle

It seems you may be missing some basic understanding of color management, which is probably part of, maybe a major part of, your fear of printing.

Some knowledge maybe be found in Martin Evening's PDF http://www.photoshopforphotographers.com/pscc/downloads/colormanage.pdf There are many others, maybe more basic.

The basic point is that there are 'color spaces', also called 'working spaces', and color profiles for output devices.  Some color spaces are RGB, aRGP, ProphotoRGB, etc.  these are wat you use working with the image in Photoshop.  The output profile is only used for printing ( or softproofing), but never "converted" to....as it is not a working color space.

I would suggest you get some basic books or instruction on color management and printing.  I have not sed Imageprint, but understand it can be quite good.  I suspect, with your background knowledge, it may be making things worse rather than better. 

If i were you, i would start with as basic a flow as possible, until you build up your knowledge.  You might consider using something such as Lightroom where much of the changes ar under the covers.  Just a thought.

[stefohl]

I embarrasingly admit that the reason I got imageprint is because the whole process of printing sends shivvers up my spine, to attemtping through photoshop etc is something I'd rater not get involved with if possible

Why embarrassed about that? As you make all your settings in one place, ImagePrint makes it easier to get a good result, especially if you are printing in B&W. But you have to have a basic understanding of color management.

Start out in Photoshop’s color settings and see what RGB color space you are working with. I suggest that you start out with Adobe RGB.
Then go to ImagePrint’s preferences. Under Profiles, use Apply. ImagePrint will see what color profile is embedded in the image and use that profile to convert from. The profile you will convert to is set in the dashboard, if you are using IP9. Here you pick your brand of paper, the specific paper, the printer resolution and the light that the print is to be shown in.

The preview you get in ImagePrint gives me a better preview of the final print than Photoshop’s. So I tend to skip the softproofing in Photoshop. If I’m not satisfied with the look of the image I go back to Photoshop and adjust the image.

[I Simonius]

thanks - yes I use LR but its way too basic for the sort of pixel pushing I do on my images - THAT part I have sussed - though it's taken a  while

but you are right there are large gaps in my Ps knowledge, whe it comes to PRINTING output

I have read a fair bit on color management (believe it or not) but this stuff does not go into my aged brain very easily - unfortunately the best book on the subject is a bit pricey now that Bruce Fraser left us

[I Simonius]

Why embarrassed about that? As you make all your settings in one place, ImagePrint makes it easier to get a good result, especially if you are printing in B&W. But you have to have a basic understanding of color management.

Start out in Photoshop’s color settings and see what RGB color space you are working with. I suggest that you start out with Adobe RGB.
Then go to ImagePrint’s preferences. Under Profiles, use Apply. ImagePrint will see what color profile is embedded in the image and use that profile to convert from. The profile you will convert to is set in the dashboard, if you are using IP9. Here you pick your brand of paper, the specific paper, the printer resolution and the light that the print is to be shown in.

The preview you get in ImagePrint gives me a better preview of the final print than Photoshop’s. So I tend to skip the softproofing in Photoshop. If I’m not satisfied with the look of the image I go back to Photoshop and adjust the image.

thanks for your help:)

strangely I have been doing all BW to date and printing it OK with no probs ( you don't see the profiles in the screen shots as I had to recently reinstall)

I work in Ps in ProPhoto RGB normally

yes I used Imageprint to preview first ( v8 - can't upgrade yet as I'm on a  PPC mac and no money to upgrade) . It was that preview that had me wondering what the blazes was going on and why I tried softproofing in Ps to see if it would shed any light on the problem. so yes normally I'd use IP.

[I Simonius]

I tried the same thing with your image and with the profile for the Ilford paper. I couldn't see the same colour shift that your screen grabs showed. Are you shure you tried the daylight profile. ImagePrint profiles comes in different flavors, created for daylight, tungsten and fluorescent lighting. With a saturated red color, like the one in your image, this can make a difference. For soft proofing, I always prefer to use the daylight profile. If I know that the print will be shown under another lighting condition, I then change to that profile when I print.

thanks I will try the daylight profile, I had used the mixed light one