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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 188431 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #320 on: May 08, 2013, 06:20:20 am »

The term "ransomware" comes to mind, except in this case you voluntarily allow yourself to be held to ransom.

Yep, I like the term too!

To be honest I use Lightroom for most of my work, so I expect to be able to make do with Photoshop CS6 for years to come. I may continue to upgrade Lightroom if Adobe continue to sell it, but I already feel uneasy about investing my time in it. I'll certainly be looking around for any feasible alternative.

There are excellent alternatives to LR today. C1 Pro and DxO 8 come to mind. They are very close overall and superior in some ways.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #321 on: May 08, 2013, 06:25:36 am »

I for one would pony up a year's worth of Adobe subscription fees to the developer who promises to make the next generation of still image processing software, and offers a perpetual license with upgrades.  If a million of us did the same thing, it would underwrite new product development, and we'd be free of Adobe once and for all. 

Kickstarter is the perfect platform for this.

I have suggested the good folks at The Gimp to do just that. They are probably the closest to having a viable alternative. It would take a couple of million US$ to consolidate the team, would it be for a one shot paid release. We would be very likely to have something covering the needs of most photographers within 1+ years.

Cheers,
Bernard

Chris Pollock

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #322 on: May 08, 2013, 06:27:38 am »

In the grand scheme of things, is Adobe's CC initiative the most important issue in your life?
No, not by a long shot. I've survived far worse disappointments in life. It is, however, rather annoying to learn that I will never be able to buy a new version of one of my most frequently used pieces of software. I'll make do with CS6 for a while, eventually migrate to something else, and life will go on.

As others have suggested, this may even be a good thing in the long run, since it will provide a good opportunity for anyone who wants to provide an alternative to Photoshop. It may ultimately lead to some much-needed diversity in the image processing software market.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 07:39:06 am by Chris Pollock »
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Morris Taub

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #323 on: May 08, 2013, 06:31:12 am »


There are excellent alternatives to LR today. C1 Pro and DxO 8 come to mind. They are very close overall and superior in some ways.

Cheers,
Bernard


As far as I know, these programs do not include a data base/library the way Lightroom does. Is this right, wrong?

john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #324 on: May 08, 2013, 06:57:03 am »

As far as I know, these programs do not include a data base/library the way Lightroom does. Is this right, wrong?
C1 v7 does, though it's not as integral to the app.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #325 on: May 08, 2013, 06:59:51 am »

C1 v7 does, though it's not as integral to the app.

Indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #326 on: May 08, 2013, 07:23:05 am »

Quote
Trying to maintain both a subscription model AND a perpetual model is unsustainable...

Quote
The problem (highlighted by the 13.1/13.0.4 technical issues) is that keeping a dual licensing model alive proved to be impossible, so they dropped the perpetual license model so they could go all in on the subscription model.

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Believe it...dual dev of perpetual & subscription would have been a disaster (was a disaster) and that was ultimately the deciding factor in killing perpetual (and I'm not sure Adobe would be happy having me say that, but it's true).

Three quotes from Jeff regarding PS, but it still raises the hair on my neck when combined with Winston Hendricksons musings about the future of LR:

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"the Lightroom team is very aware of the reaction by photographers to Photoshop CC. We don't have plans to make Lightroom a subscription-only option ..."

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"... but we do envision added functionality for the CC version of Lightroom."

One doesn't have to be fluent in the field of mathematics to put these things together.

Quote
I really don't know...the fact is, it's Adobe's only App Store app and that changes the nature of the app and updates.

Quote
So it would be a LOT of work to turn LR into an activation type of registration.

Then there are these aspects from Jeff, but I'm willing to bet that Adobe doesn't mind putting in the hours and work to "provide its customers with a unified line of products".

To be honest I use Lightroom for most of my work, so I expect to be able to make do with Photoshop CS6 for years to come. I may continue to upgrade Lightroom if Adobe continue to sell it, but I already feel uneasy about investing my time in it. I'll certainly be looking around for any feasible alternative.

Which brings me to the same conclusion where Chris has landed here. I'm also feeling the uneasiness about investing my time in developing in Lightroom.

Just my 0,02$
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Streetshooter

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #327 on: May 08, 2013, 07:30:04 am »

"As far as my credibility is concerned...I guess you just don't understand. I seriously couldn't care less what my credibility may or may not be. I just don't care what people think. Sorry, maybe that's a character flaw (not in my mind :~), but guess what, I don't care...it means nothing to me...zilch, zero, nada, nothing. Get it?
"

Awww don't go Jeff... Your rude offensive replies have always been the highlight of posts on LL subjects. I shall miss you 'shoot from the lip' replies. Do you pack a pair of pistols ? I bet you've got the boots too.

Many years ago KODAK used to demonstrate the same contempt to their customers as ADOBE is doing. Where is KODAK now ? Big corporations do fall from grace, maybe not overnight but it can happen.

The choice is clear if you don't like the future ADOBE business model don't buy into it, I know I won't. As far as I'm concerned ACR was the least effective RAW converter for my Nikon files, and I tried the lot. So personally it will not affect me too much with the way ADOBE is heading. So for me it's Thanks But No Thanks, I do not want to be screwed. I'll wait to see what else comes along from a smaller software company who values their smaller customers. And something will come along sooner or later.....

Pete
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jrsforums

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #328 on: May 08, 2013, 07:38:33 am »

We get it. You've made it exceedingly clear that you don't care in the slightest what any of us think of you.

More importantly, in your role of LuLa guru, unofficial Adobe spokesman and Adobe defender, you've also made it exceedingly clear what you think of those of us who have a different opinion than yours.


As many have seen, Mr. Schewe does not engage in a dialog.  He is all knowing and any comments from others are ignored.  He just keeps coming back with the same BS...ignoring and/or not commenting on any responses that do not fit the message he is trying to get across.

He has a script...probably supplied by Adobe.  

It is much like an interview with a politician.  Haven't we all been frustrated by them.  The interviewer asks a hard hitting question.  The politician responds with something unrelated, but inline with the message he has in his script.  The interviewer comes back again....again the politician ignores the question and responds with his script.  Basically a worthless exercise.

BTW...a side thought on Jeff's response to not creating a PKS version for GIMP.  I would not be surprised that the lucrative PixelGenius deal with Adobe precludes providing a plugin for any other product.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #329 on: May 08, 2013, 07:55:33 am »

"Ken, I assume we agree that the clause you have bolded is very common in software licenses and I assume we both understand the reasons for it, and that it is not relevant to competition law in this context. I assume also you would agree that being X% of a market is legally innocuous per se, unless it can be proven that they used dominant market power to frustrate competition in a manner that is proscribed by the law. So what's your point that makes this change in pricing policy actionable? I still don't get it."

I agree only that it is common practice for software companies to include those disclaimers.  I do not agree with anything else you assert. If you read the legal opinion of Koh your questions about relevance and Adobe's market share are both addressed.  Market share has everything to do with the Sherman Act.  Indeed, it is the very foundation of all Anti-Trust litigation.  Adobe's conduct is NOT merely changing a price point.  It's willingness to rent Photoshop CS as a stand alone was driven by the California case that I cited you to.  It won't be enough to save it for this reason.  It has bundled it's entire suite for $49.00 per month in precisely the manner objected to by Judge Koh.  It is anti competitive under Section 2 when viewed against the former $2,000.00 and up prices charged for the suites.  It is anti-competitive when Adobe argues that it will "lose" money.  Well that's irrational!  The only explanation is to capture more market and destroy competition.  You MAY NOT price competitors, and accessory providers out of business.

As to the warranty, we have grown accustomed to the practice of the click through, but that does not make it ethical to disclaim one's advertising.  More importantly, as the only real provider in the business, Adobe can disclaim it's advertising and all of the expectations it created because of it's dominant market share.  It will not negotiate because it has no competitors.  Do you really think we should not be legally  protected from this when we have invested time and money in training, in DNG files, Raw camera software?  

Ken Richmond


OK - first let's deal with word "assert". I'm not "asserting" - I'm discussing issues from the basis of the fundamental principles underlying the legislation and what they imply for some of the argument being offered in this thread.

Market share is not the basis of the Sherman Act or most competition law in many jurisdictions having such legislation based on North American and European principles. The Act is not aimed at status it is aimed at behaviour. Go back to what the framers had in mind and you will find this substantiated. In a nutshell, the behaviour competition law targets is the abuse of a dominant market position to frustrate the benefits of competition, and there are a host of recognized practices defining that, as we all know. The big challenge is to prove it.

You are trying to put together a case that the pricing arrangements is somehow predatory, if I understand you correctly, such as "loss leader" pricing wherein a company sells at a loss in order to frustrate market entry by competitors. And you suggest bundling a bunch of products into a 49 dollar package does that. Well, first let's get the facts right. It isn't 49 dollars. It's 49 dollars per month for a contractual minimum of 12 months and then the price goes up. A year after the introductory period has become past history, the licensee is into a pricing scheme that equals or exceeds the previous cost of the 18 month upgrade cycle, for all those who up-grade per cycle. But regardless of that, whatever the pricing, a complainant would have to demonstrate in what way that pricing is predatory or a loss leader. I am suggesting to you this would be a real tough sell in the context of Adobe and by the end of the litigation process the main beneficiaries will be the lawyers. And this isn't an assertion, it's a reasonable judgment based on first principles and key relevant factors.

Let us turn to bundling of products -  that too is legal as long as the manner in which it is done does not undercut competition and, in respect of consumer protection law, does not force consumers to buy products they can't get in any other way. I don't believe Adobe would be found guilty on this count either, once you examine the marketing arrangements carefully enough. I do believe their legal people have been through all of this with a fine-tooth comb before it got announced and to the best of their ability they most probably think they are on very safe ground. Not to say they can't be wrong, but we are dealing with probabilities and relevance of argument here.

I share your frustration with the problems you have dealing with customer support. But that is a different talk-show. All manner of companies offer shitty support. It doesn't prove anything about the legality of the subscription pricing mechanism. It may be immoral to treat people this way, but again, another talk-show. And as for the terms of the software license - they are all the same - take it leave it, and we all take it, knowing it's a stacked deck, but again, completely legal. I have a huge problem with Microsoft Office for Mac. It has serious flaws that are known issues - in particular of possible interest to you - Word can crash when using the Commenting features for writing notes on lengthy, formatted legal agreements. Excel has other issues. You try getting satisfaction from Microsoft on any of this. I kicked and screamed and as far as I got was an acknowledgement that these are "known issues" and they working on them. So there they are, selling, ON SUBSCRIPTION by the way, licenses to use IP that is arguably unfit for purpose, and I the renter have no rights except to rant at them to fix it, which of course I do. So that's where that matter stands whether we like it or not. No cigar from the courtroom on any of this. Who was it that said "The law is an ass"? Man, did they get that one right. :-)

OK, back to real work now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Morris Taub

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #330 on: May 08, 2013, 08:12:15 am »

C1 v7 does, though it's not as integral to the app.

I'll go to the capture one site, see if they have a trial available and check it out for myself. Time to start research into adobe alternatives.

Like some others have mentioned, I too do not trust Adobe to continue to offer Lightroom as it is for long. Maybe by this time next year we'll get the same song and dance they are showing us about photoshop...Lightroom too much to deal with as subscription and stand alone product (we don't want to over work the adobe staff, do we?)...join our subscription or not, but it's our way or the highway...

Some of the text from the Winston Hendrikson interview published at dpr...

"The reason behind the subscription-only move is the logistics of supporting two sets of software. The last 12 months of development was brutal. And there were results we were not happy with. We have decided to focus on the CC products.

As far as the future of CS applications, in his Adobe MAX keynote, David Wadhwani said, 'We have no plans' to continue perpetual licenses. We are not ruling that out in the future."

who do they think they are kidding...they want this subscription only to raise prices, guarantee a flow of income with increases whenever they want, make the shareholders happy...

and no plans for perpetual licenses but they aren't ruling it out in the future...could they sound more confused? So, drop my old Photoshop license, sign up for the subscription, drop it when they re-instate the old way?...are they on drugs?...

Rhossydd

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #331 on: May 08, 2013, 09:38:44 am »

I'll go to the capture one site, see if they have a trial available and check it out for myself.
Yes, a sixty day trial is available. There looks to be a lot to like in C1P7 too.
Even better I can get a discounted upgrade from having owned a previous version in 2004 :-)
The difficulty will be migration, but even that might be addressed if there's sufficient interest.

Somehow giving my money in future to a company based around high quality photography seems much more appealing let a company focused on internet marketing suck all my cash away.
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Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #332 on: May 08, 2013, 09:55:08 am »

Yes, a sixty day trial is available. There looks to be a lot to like in C1P7 too.
Even better I can get a discounted upgrade from having owned a previous version in 2004 :-)
The difficulty will be migration, but even that might be addressed if there's sufficient interest.

Somehow giving my money in future to a company based around high quality photography seems much more appealing let a company focused on internet marketing suck all my cash away.

I for one am on a Capture One 7 video spree at the moment.

Link to Capture One 7 video playlist on Youtube...
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #333 on: May 08, 2013, 10:41:55 am »

Hi,

Always a recommendation for when emotions get to a high, What the Duck:


Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 10:44:17 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #334 on: May 08, 2013, 10:50:09 am »

Got to love that WTD is back :D
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kirkt

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #335 on: May 08, 2013, 10:59:51 am »

After reading about this and watching Kelby's interview with Hogarty, it appears that Adobe is essentially equating "photographers" with Lightroom.  It would seem that the enhanced aspects of a CC-based Lightroom (versus a box copy) would be aimed at the Cloud-related ability to access raw/smart preview files on desktop and mobile devices and also to be able to publish to various sites, etc.  There are some interesting comments regarding the photographic workflow and how it is ostensibly migrating to mobile devices, including Kelby's assertion that one may actually want to be editing files on a tablet (iPad) because that is where the majority of people view photos nowadays.  That is, it is better to edit on that device with that output device in mind, because that is where most people will view your images - color management is not controllable per se, but at least iPads displays across users are relatively similar, so one would hope to have a better shot at having their iPad-viewed images be more consistent across users.  It is definitely a different way to look at the issue of preparing images for public consumption versus a fully color-managed workflow likely targeting print output.

So, for whatever you end up paying monthly, you will have Adobe host your images so that you can have them (including the smart previews) available on all of your devices - sorts, categories and edits you perform on one platform will sync across devices.  Sounds like Apple's iCloud, apps and music.  Duh, no surprise that this is the upshot of the upcoming Lightroom experience.  Given all of the discussion here about copyright and ownership, it will be interesting to see how Adobe frames this cloud hosting in terms of image and file copyright/ownership.

This is the "discussion" Adobe has started - Hogarty kept coming back to the notion that this transition is the beginning of a discussion.  Interesting.  It will also be interesting to see how Photoshop fits into this discussion, as Adobe appears to be segmenting photographers primarily into the Lightroom category.  Once they introduce layers into Lightroom, that will pretty much be reason enough for "photographers" to abandon Photoshop and depend solely on Lightroom - at least that would be my highly uneducated guess.  My guess is that, once layers occur in Lightroom, Lightroom will no longer be a box-product and will join the CC as a stand-alone photographic workflow where Adobe can provide you most of the Photoshop-like experience, across multiple devices, and host all of your images for you for the monthly fee model.  I think this is how Adobe is essentially acknowledging that Photoshop is a monstrous tool that "photographers" don't really need most of, so they have refined the essentials and called it Lightroom.  Makes total sense when you consider that the full name of Lightroom is "Adobe Photoshop Lightroom."  I can understand where some, maybe many, photographers prefer the all-in-one solution of Lightroom - so, it appears that if this is the way you prefer to work, then the Lightroom experience that Adobe has in store for you may make your preferred workflow even better.  However, if Lightroom is a sometimes thing, it will be interesting to see how workflows adapt or look elsewhere as Adobe's roadmap takes shape, especially considering that alternative raw conversion workflows may lean much more heavily on Photoshop.

Another aspect of all of this will be the way Adobe's development of the mobile platform takes shape when they will obviously be targeting Apple products as a significant hardware base.  Developing for desktops and laptops where Apple has such a small market share is one thing, but the mobile device environment is, I would imagine, very different.  Should be good fun to see how this shakes out.  Emphasis on the mobile device market is a no-brainer.

kirk
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #336 on: May 08, 2013, 11:09:22 am »

Thing is that LR is going to also be CC, just a matter of time.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #337 on: May 08, 2013, 11:11:53 am »

...I understand that people don't like to feel strong-armed into something they don't understand

Actually, dooood, we DO understand.  And that's why we're pissed off.
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BJL

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Adding the option of a one-time payment to freeze CC version
« Reply #338 on: May 08, 2013, 11:20:28 am »

I wonder how difficult it would be for Adobe to add an option akin to the way I license my main professional software tool, Matlab:
1. a monthly or annual fee to stay up-to-date, get could services, online support and such --- as currently with CC.
2. the added option of paying a one-time fee to freeze one's CC license at the current version, losing support and cloud services.

Could this avoid the problems of maintaining two versions (CS and CC) and allow the elimination of selling on physical media, by instead adding only the need for the license servers to keep track of the version number at which various licenses are frozen, and keep previous versions for re-downloading if needed? (Aside: Matlab does this: you can download numerous old versions, and can download an older version even when your license is not up-to-date for the current version, to cover cases like an old computer not being able to run a newer version.)

The frozen versions would probably still have to check in with an Adobe license server once every 180 days, as with annual subscriptions, but that would be far less stressful to many PS users than the "perpetual payment" model.


I doubt it will happen, because the clear message from Adobe is that amateur photographers should being using Lightroom instead, leaving Photoshop for "creative professionals".
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Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #339 on: May 08, 2013, 11:31:05 am »

There are some interesting comments regarding the photographic workflow and how it is ostensibly migrating to mobile devices, including Kelby's assertion that one may actually want to be editing files on a tablet (iPad) because that is where the majority of people view photos nowadays.  That is, it is better to edit on that device with that output device in mind, because that is where most people will view your images - color management is not controllable per se, but at least iPads displays across users are relatively similar, so one would hope to have a better shot at having their iPad-viewed images be more consistent across users.  It is definitely a different way to look at the issue of preparing images for public consumption versus a fully color-managed workflow likely targeting print output.

Couldn't expect any more or any less from mr. Kelby. I place him just a hair above mr. Rockwell with his comments.

It really is a different way to look at things, but bearing in mind that while all iPad displays might be quite similar, all tablets aren't i-Products. On top of that the notion about "most people" even owning tablets (or similar portable devices) in the first place is pretty ignorant (don't know if to cry or laugh at these assumptions).

The rest of it is pretty much how I'd see this thing boiling down to with a few exceptions. For example Lightroom isn't going to be a tool for serious retouching even with "brusheable" content aware heal or just adding layers to it. It would definitely go a long way for most people, but I don't see techniques like frequency separation or D&B at pixel level inside a RAW-editor happening. Also not all photo editing or retouching is just about editing or retouching. LR doesn't cut it if you have to actually draw or write something (a collage etc.).
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