Phase One / Mamiya DF+ and Schneider 28mm LS

[Doug Peterson]

Announcing Phase One DF+ and Schneider 28mm LS.

Not much more than a press release level of detail at this point, but we're working to get more specifics and will post them as they come.

[design_freak]

The King is dead, long live the King! 

[Doug Peterson]

First notable new detail: User Settable AF Fine Tuning

[Doug Peterson]

Next notable detail, the 28mm LS is shipping now. Sounds saleish, but if this is a lens you want, I'd put your order it this morning. Since it's actually shipping and is (by far) the widest LS lens available for the platform I expect the back-log to form quickly.

[wolfbellw.]

sounds like a revolutionary new concept.
 

[Christopher]

I don't even want to write about it. I'm so hm lets say, its so sad and funny at the same time....

[andreagenor]

 
curious

sounds like a revolutionary new concept.
 

[FredBGG]

An enhanced auto-focus delivers accurately focused images fast, even when shooting in low light or low contrast. And with an all-new custom adjustment feature photographers can fine-tune the alignment of digital backs to the camera. With this photographers can easily match their focus preference.

I hope they have added more focus points and made them more defined, but it does not sound like it.
Also I wonder if they have an indication now of which focus point is locking focus.
It also sounds like the focus tuning is not on a lens to lens basis as it is with Canon and Nikon.

The Phase One 645DF+ builds on the success of previous generations of the camera and has undergone a complete overhaul of all moving parts to produce a camera with the highest uptime in the market of high-end photography.

Highest uptime in high end photography..... Hmmm.... Does that mean they are not as reliable as the cameras used by the riff raff..

I wonder if DF customers will be offered an upgrade path as this in a sense is an admission of reliability flaws in the previous DF model.

[Doug Peterson]

I hope they have added more focus points and made them more defined, but it does not sound like it.
Also I wonder if they have an indication now of which focus point is locking focus.

No and no.

It also sounds like the focus tuning is not on a lens to lens basis as it is with Canon and Nikon.

Not correct. It is on a lens to lens basis. Since (unlike Canon/Nikon) you can use multiple backs on a particular body (or multiple bodies for a particular back) it is also back-to-back basis.

I wonder if DF customers will be offered an upgrade path as this in a sense is an admission of reliability flaws in the previous DF model.

No manufacturer upgrade pricing; though dealers are free to offer such things.

Notably because Phase One is an open platform you can change or upgrade your body independent of the back. So unlike competitors that make you upgrade the back and body at the same time a user of for instance a P40+ and Phase One AF body could elect to upgrade their body to a DF+ or their back to an IQ160, or both at their own discretion.

By your logic any new camera means the previous camera was flawed.

[FredBGG]

Not correct. It is on a lens to lens basis. Since (unlike Canon/Nikon) you can use multiple backs on a particular body (or multiple bodies for a particular back) it is also back-to-back basis.

Nice to stand corrected on this one. Nice improvement. Not ground breaking, but nice to see Phase catch up.

Do you know if it will also remember two samples of the same lens if someone has a backup lens.

[FredBGG]

By your logic any new camera means the previous camera was flawed.

Not at all. Based on experience of having owned a DFs and an AF. When I had my issues I did a bit of poking around and found
that many others had similar and far worse issues. I would get various and random camera freezes. Required taking back off, grip off, batteries out and re assembling the lot.
Not acceptable for me.

[HarperPhotos]

Hello,

Does any one know how many elements and groups does the new 28mm LS lens have?

Cheers

Simon

[Andrew Teakle]

I'm really delighted about the lithium ion battery in the DF+. The AAs were a pain in the AAs and usually died at exactly the most inconvenient time. 10000 shots?? Hyperbole maybe, but has to be a major improvement.

Still waiting for that mythical über camera that Michael referenced.

Best regards,

Andrew

[Mr. Rib]

I hope all of these announcements are just the beginning, but I highly doubt it... is MF market so beaten up by 35mm DSLR that they don't have any R&D money left? Everything is pumped into mechanisms to fool people or what.. DF+ announcement is a bad joke, so is the Leica announcement. Hasselblad without any change to sensors is also a joke (I don't need 10000 mp sensor but come on, at least update something, pull more dynamic range out of the guts you have or introduce longer exposures.. anything!). MF is more and more disappointing, although I thought they are long at the point in which they can't disappoint me any further.

[ondebanks]

I can't see anything new in the DF+ body other than mildly improved autofocus response (it's still the same 3 central focus spots, is it not?) and the ability to set different autofocus-focal plane calibrations. The long-life battery has already been around as a 3rd party accessory.

Where's the interchangeable viewfinder that users asked for? The restoration of film-back compatibility? The complete revamp of the fiddly little buttons interface? The wider distribution of many AF points that might compete with Hasselblad's TrueFocus? Weatherproofing? Faster AF primes (like the 645 ProTL's faster ones)?

The feature and performance increments seem to get smaller with most revisions of the 645AF platform (this DF+ being the 6th version). Clearly Mamiya themselves recognised this - they didn't dare call it the DF2, as it just didn't deserve a full number increment!

One can only hope that the reason for this is that behind the scenes, something truly new and awesome is (still) being developed.

In the meantime I'll happily keep using my "vintage" 645AFD, which for me is 90% as good as the DF+ (and better in some ways - film back option, mechanical T mode, mechanical mirror lockup), and 10% as costly.

Ray

[Mr. Rib]

So true ondebanks..

No, really, these announcements sound like a bad joke.. they even make me pissed a bit- but not that I was expecting something big, no, I wasn't, I'm too accustomed to MF development proccess. But because they are insolent enough to ask for our money with their half-ass underdeveloped products. They really must think low of us, are we a bunch of idiots for them?

[Doug Peterson]

I can't see anything new in the DF+ body other than mildly improved autofocus response (it's still the same 3 central focus spots, is it not?) and the ability to set different autofocus-focal plane calibrations. The long-life battery has already been around as a 3rd party accessory.

Where's the interchangeable viewfinder that users asked for? The restoration of film-back compatibility? The complete revamp of the fiddly little buttons interface? The wider distribution of many AF points that might compete with Hasselblad's TrueFocus? Weatherproofing? Faster AF primes (like the 645 ProTL's faster ones)?

This was a refinement of the existing body. The requests you have above are all requests for a new platform - something Phase One has already publicly committed to.

"New" takes time to get right. In the meantime offering a refinement of what's currently available is a logical course.

Doing one does not mean you're not also working on the other.

[FredBGG]

This was a refinement of the existing body. The requests you have above are all requests for a new platform - something Phase One has already publicly committed to.

"New" takes time to get right. In the meantime offering a refinement of what's currently available is a logical course.

Doing one does not mean you're not also working on the other.

All sounds a bit feeble. All this talk about a full rehaul of all moving parts, but nothing changed on the outside.
I do not see why more focus points or film backs requite a new platform. Even a removable viewfinder could be done based on the same body.
Hell just about every Mamiya before this had removable finders. The real problem is that Mamiya thought AF would trump the need of different finders.
Not the case.

While a refinement is a move forward I think it will back fire to a certain extent. Phase Mamiya often make somewhat exaggerated claims.
The fixing of reliability remains to be seen. The claim of the most reliable high end camera is unfounded, unless they have had an H5D for 6 months to compare.
I think it makes DF owners that have issues quite pissed off as it is in a sense admitting that the camera is flawed and yet they do not offer an upgrade path even
for recent DF buyers. Profit margins on these cameras are high.... $6,000 for a body with no sensor. There is plenty of room to provide an upgrade path.
I think that doing so would give people far more confidence in the system.
I think that an upgrade path is also important because there is supposedly a totally new camera in the works.
Why is it that there is a reasonably good upgrade path for backs, but not for the flawed body?

Doug you mentioned that dealers can offer something, but I do not think that is going far enough for Phase or mamiya. The brunt should not be on the dealer and the message sent should be from the manufacturer.

[Paul2660]

I believe it may have something to do with the  scale/numbers of total MF digital backs sold vs 35mm DSLR's.  I read on getdpi that the total number of MF digital back sales annually was around 12K (this is from all companies not just Phase One).  Compare that to over 40 million DSLR's a year. That number was surprisingly low to me as I would have thought it 3x of that or higher.  It helps explain the cost of the new DF still at 6K as the sheer numbers of unit sold will not be anywhere close to the numbers Nikon and Canon will sell in DSLR bodies.  Plus some of those backs are being used in Tech cameras so the actual number new 645DF+ bodies that Phase can sell is not that high I would think.  Scope of sales is small thus price is higher. 


Paul


 

[EricWHiss]

This was a refinement of the existing body. The requests you have above are all requests for a new platform - something Phase One has already publicly committed to.

"New" takes time to get right. In the meantime offering a refinement of what's currently available is a logical course.

Doing one does not mean you're not also working on the other.

Um, well if it has taken this long to just 'refine' the 645... then it's going to take a LONG time for whatever it is you hint at.   I'd sure hate to be the salesman that has to press this on his customers.  "Sorry no upgrade possible, you have to buy this $6k camera but don't worry you'll get to buy another newer camera some time soon that will be better."  Maybe this will be the year that Phase dealers start with informing their customers that their excellent backs can be fit to other platforms instead of always pushing the party platform.