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Author Topic: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox  (Read 21206 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2012, 11:52:06 am »

Ray,

I used Sigma 150-500 on D300, and was happy with the results. The stabilizator is not as good as on Canon, and at the 500mm the lens gets softer, but at 400 and 1/1000s or faster it's pretty good. 

Theoretically, if you mount this lens on D3200 and a supersteady tripod, at 400mm and F6.3, you might see some fine details better resolved than with D7000.
However, in practical terms (shooting handheld and at 500mm), I wouldn't expect big differences between those two bodies attached to Sigma 150-500.
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Ray

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2012, 10:40:15 pm »

Ray,

I used Sigma 150-500 on D300, and was happy with the results. The stabilizator is not as good as on Canon, and at the 500mm the lens gets softer, but at 400 and 1/1000s or faster it's pretty good. 

Theoretically, if you mount this lens on D3200 and a supersteady tripod, at 400mm and F6.3, you might see some fine details better resolved than with D7000.
However, in practical terms (shooting handheld and at 500mm), I wouldn't expect big differences between those two bodies attached to Sigma 150-500.

Les,
I don't think I've ever seen so much confusion on the internet, regarding a comparison between two lenses. You say the stabiliser is not as good as on the Canon 100-400, yet others say it is marginally better because the Sigma is a more recent model of lens with perhaps as much as an extra stop of IS.

Others complain about the extra weight. The lens alone is certainly heavier than the Canon 100-400, but here again there is confusion because the weight of the Canom 100-400 seems to have been reduced in more recent production copies. My copy of this lens definitely weighs about 1.6 to 1.65Kgs. Yet the current specs for this lens, on the USA website, and others, mention a weight of 1.38Kgs.

The D3200 body is lighter than the Canon 50D body (or D7000 body), so total weight of the 150-500/D3200 combination would be about the same for me, or even marginally lighter.

The main point, and most disturbing point, is that the 150-500 is softer at 500mm than the 100-400 is at 400mm, at full aperture. But here I believe there's also confusion.

My copy of the Canon 100-400 was bought in 2002. At 400mm it's definitely softer at F5.6 than at F8 ot F11, as indeed the Photozone tests show with the 20D. In fact I used to think my lens was sharpest at F11, until I did some controlled tests and found it was very marginally sharper at F8. The impression I'd initially got that it was sharpest at F11 was probably due to the lesser need for critical focussing due to the greater DoF at F11.

However, the sharpness difference between F8 and F11 is so slight, the main reason I use F8 with the 100-400 at 400mm is because it allows a faster shutter speed at the same ISO.

I've read reports that recent copies of the Canon 100-400 have improved optics and are now at least as sharp at F5.6 as at F8, at the long end. If this is the case, I can understand why the Canon zoom is considered to be sharper at 400mm, comparing both lenses at full aperture.

However, it seems to me if one is serious about resolution, one should always try to find out at what aperture one's lenses are sharpest. The Sigma 150-500 at full extension seems to be sharpest at F11, so that's the F stop one should always try to use if one wants the sharpest result at 500mm.

When a lens is described as being sharpest at a particular aperture, one needs to know 'how much sharper'. Whilst a Canon 100-400 might be noticeably sharper at F5.6 than the Sigma at F6.3, it might not be noticeably sharper than the Sigma at F11. Just as a lens can be very marginally sharper at F8 than it is at F11, it can also be only 'very marginally sharper' at F5.6 than at F8, or even equally sharp at F5.6 as it is at F8 and F11.

It's a pity that Photozone hasn't tested the Sigma 150-500 yet. However here's a test using the D800 with the lens, showing various test charts indicating that the lens is sharpest at F11 at 500mm. One might be able to get equally sharp results F9 or F10, but F6.3 is clearly much softer.  http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sigma_150-500mm_f5-6-3_DG_OS_HSM/

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LesPalenik

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 01:24:50 am »

Ray,

thank you for the link with review of Sigma 150-500 on D800, and for pointing out that that lens is sharpest at F11.
I used to open up the lens so I could shoot at higher shutter speed, since I found out that at the slower shutter speeds I wasn't getting the required sharpness, even with the stabilization on. Indeed, at F6.3 the pictures were soft.

Now I see that it might be better to raise ISO slightly. Shooting with that lens at ISO400 and F11 should yield a better image than at ISO200 and F8.

Here is a recent unsharpened image (reduced to 800 pixels, along with a 100% crop), shot handheld across the bay with D300 and Sigma 150-500 at ISO200, F8, and 1/800s, at 500mm.
 
« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 01:32:54 am by LesPalenik »
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Ray

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 02:41:20 am »

Not too bad, Les. Thanks for showing the crops. The lower crop with the plant pots slightly in the foreground would be the sort of shot which would benefit from the use of F11. Not only would F11 be slightly sharper than F8, but the additional DoF should also make the plants noticeably sharper.

It seems a bit strange to me with all this activity bringing out new models of cameras almost every week, that no manufacturer has brought out a high quality, reasonably light, F5.6 (or F6.3) telephoto zoom beyond 400mm, even for DX. What's the problem? The Sigma 150-500 is clearly excellent value, but one can't help wondering what sort of quality would have been possible at just twice the price.

I don''t mind spending $2,000 on a high-quality product, but 6 or $7,000 is too much. There seems to be a gap in the market.
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barbibul

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 05:25:50 pm »

It is probably reasonnable to assume that compact upgraders are overall less knowledgeable and therefore more attracted by high specs?
Of course they are.
But all "compact upgraders" are not totally ignorant ;D, and
1) this D3200 is relatively cheap (USD 700 with a useless kit lens)
2) it's new
3) it's lightweight (500 g with battery)

Personally, I'm not very interested in the MP count. I have an old 8 MP DSLR and it's more than enough. But it's dying. I don't need to fill my computer with 24 MP pictures. "Photography" is just a hobby for me, I don't want and don't need to pay too much for a fancy camera body that I will never master, and the D3200 can also be used at 6 and 12 MP.

So, considering that a camera phone released recently has a 38MP sensor, I think that this 24 MP "entry level" D3200 body is kind of fun... It's a risk-free way to get a camera body with a decent sensor and have fun with a good lens. Why a "compact upgraders" should pay more for an older, heavier body with less pixels ? When I purchased my 8MP DSLR many years ago, I was terrified by those big files with so many useless pixels... Now, my camera phone captures 8 MP "pictures". So I just want to ignore the megapixels. 8, 16 or 24, it does not matter.

Something else about what theguywitha645d wrote earlier about cropping. I am probably a naive "compact upgraders", but I believe that any picture is cropped reality. When we capture an image, we crop what we have in front of our eyes. So what is bad with cropping again our digital images ? When I play with my pictures, I just try to show what I want to show. Reality was cropped by the lens, it was cropped again by the ratio of the sensor (what is natural in a 3:2 or 4:3 or 1:1 image?), and I think that cropping it a last time with Lightroom is not a big deal.
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dhale

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2012, 09:01:51 am »

The D3200 is no paradox.  It is a very good light weight 24 megapixel DX tool.  The Nikon D3200 buyer might be an advanced user who was tired of the heavy D7000, and wanted a lighter camera in DX to use those times when a tele-converter would be useful on my D800E without down side of loss of resolution associated with the extra glass plus the loss of 1.7 stops of light.  DxOMark rates the D3200 above the D7000 in resolution by a wide margin.  That is what I care about.  I do not care about the other feathers that the computer in the camera has or does not have.  If I take a shot and look at the upgraded back screen on the D3200, I'm smart enough to know which direction to turn the Exposure adjustment control, before I make another exposure.

I sold my D7000, after using it over a year, for near what I paid for it, bought the D3200 and used the money I had left over to help pay for a AF-S Nikkor 24mm f/1.4 G.

It just could be that the D3200 makes sense for more than just for novice users.

Have a nice day.
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Ray

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2012, 10:55:45 am »

DxOMark rates the D3200 above the D7000 in resolution by a wide margin. 

I wasn't aware that DXOMark rate the resolution of cameras. Can you show me their rating? In my experience, a 50% increase in pixel count does not represent a big increase in resolution. I'd estimate it to be in the order of 10-20%, depending on lens quality and F stop used.



Quote
If I take a shot and look at the upgraded back screen on the D3200, I'm smart enough to know which direction to turn the Exposure adjustment control, before I make another exposure.

But are you smart enough to do that in a fraction of a second in order to make another exposure before the bird has flown and the scene has perhaps changed for the worse and the moment is lost? Even the best P&S cameras have auto-exposure bracketing.

MLU is another mystery. Despite an extensive search on the net, I can find no definitive answer to this; merely suggestions that the mirror might stay up in LiveView mode when the shutter is released. If the mirror does stay up in LiveView mode, then that would be sufficient for me.

Since you claim to own a D3200, are you able to shed light on this mystery? Does the mirror stay up in Live View mode until the exposure is complete?

Regards,

Ray


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dhale

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2012, 01:22:35 pm »

DxOMark Sensor Scores D3200
Overall Score[?]   81
Portrait
(Color Depth)[?]   24.1 bits
Landscape
(Dynamic Range)[?]   13.2 Evs
Sports
(Low-Light ISO)[?]   1131 ISO

DxOMark Sensor Scores D7000
Overall Score[?]   80
Portrait
(Color Depth)[?]   23.5 bits
Landscape
(Dynamic Range)[?]   13.9 Evs
Sports
(Low-Light ISO)[?]   1167 ISO

The D3200 out scores the D7000 overall by one point.  The two are very close.  For the weight and price.  I sold my D7000 when I upgraded to the D800E.  For a DX body, the D3200 is a better fit for me.


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dhale

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2012, 04:49:31 pm »

Since you choose to include, "Since you claim to own a D3200", I will not reply to your post.  Take your sarcasm somewhere else.
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Ray

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2012, 08:15:04 pm »

Since you choose to include, "Since you claim to own a D3200", I will not reply to your post.  Take your sarcasm somewhere else.

Ah! I see you are a fan boy. Never mind! You're information would likely not be reliable anyway.
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michael

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2012, 08:39:03 pm »

None of this nonsense please. I have ZERO patience for it these days.

Everyone stay civil or be gone.

Michael
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Chris Kern

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2012, 08:53:20 pm »

None of this nonsense please. I have ZERO patience for it these days.

Everyone stay civil or be gone.

Michael

I was briefly tempted to say something regarding the tone of a couple of the recent posts myself, given that I've contributed to this thread, but decided it wasn't my place.  However, I'm glad you stepped in, Michael—and, like so many of us who spend time on this site, delighted you're feeling well enough again to intervene.

One of the many good things I've always felt distinguished Lu-La from other photograph forums was its civility.  I attribute that partly to the Canadian influence (lest anyone think Canadians tend to toot their own horns, I hasten to add that I live well south of the border) as well as to the generally cooperative attitude of the forum contributors.  I've learned a lot from the mostly polite and helpful responses to my inquiries, even when my question betrayed my own ignorance.  Be a pity to see that deteriorate.

Chris

Ray

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2012, 11:09:04 pm »

Sorry! Michael. My fault. I should have known better.

Hope you are recuperating well.

Best wishes,  Ray
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Nikon D3200 - An Apparent Paradox
« Reply #33 on: August 02, 2012, 02:24:34 am »

Hi Michael,

Nice to have you back and take care!

Best regards
Erik

None of this nonsense please. I have ZERO patience for it these days.

Everyone stay civil or be gone.

Michael

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Erik Kaffehr
 
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