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Author Topic: Medium Format Digital in space...  (Read 3928 times)

FredBGG

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Medium Format Digital in space...
« on: June 26, 2012, 05:49:47 pm »

What if any MFD cameras are being used in space?

Hasselblad was the camera back in the day at least with film.

Just got curious when I saw this:



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Pingang

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2012, 02:09:32 am »

I am not sure if this is taken in the space? The background looks like a common sky but certainly I could be wrong, the question is the payload of the rocket has to be so carefully calculated, I would not think there is a good logic to bring so many cameras out there. it is a dustless environment, they can change the lens with less concern of dusts. On the other hand, I do think those space agency today have the system not really a medium format camera but something with even larger sensor in a custom housing.

Pingang

What if any MFD cameras are being used in space?

Hasselblad was the camera back in the day at least with film.

Just got curious when I saw this:




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MarkoRepse

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 05:58:27 am »

Of course its in space. Look at the floating cameras. I'm fairly certain this is on the ISS and the background is the Earth. An MFD camera up there would certainly be interesting, however compared to DSLRs its use would be rather limited due to high light requirements and limited focal lengths. It really doesn't make sense because in space every kg counts, though one could argue they have plenty of Nikons to eject :) Besides, they have plenty of "big" cameras up there in the form of satellites.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 06:02:17 am by MarkoRepse »
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Pingang

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 06:43:49 am »

I am still not convinced. The image looks to be a wide angle shot so if earth were the background it would be rather small, at least the clouds will be a lot smaller and yet the cloud looks so close and big, anyway, the picture looks strange. I just think it does not make sense to bring so many cameras there, the weight and space would be more important for instruments.

Pingang




Of course its in space. Look at the floating cameras. I'm fairly certain this is on the ISS and the background is the Earth. An MFD camera up there would certainly be interesting, however compared to DSLRs its use would be rather limited due to high light requirements and limited focal lengths. It really doesn't make sense because in space every kg counts, though one could argue they have plenty of Nikons to eject :) Besides, they have plenty of "big" cameras up there in the form of satellites.
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gerald.d

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 07:19:44 am »

I am still not convinced. The image looks to be a wide angle shot so if earth were the background it would be rather small, at least the clouds will be a lot smaller and yet the cloud looks so close and big, anyway, the picture looks strange. I just think it does not make sense to bring so many cameras there, the weight and space would be more important for instruments.

Pingang





The ISS is in low-Earth orbit, only around 400km up, so the Earth - which is around 13,000km in diameter, would most certainly not look "rather small".

It's been up there for 14 years. Plenty of trips to take cameras up. Once they're up there, their weight is pretty meaningless given the ISS weighs around 450 tonnes.

I suspect the issue is more one of how would they (safely) bring a camera back down again?
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gerald.d

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ondebanks

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 07:30:26 am »

it is a dustless environment, they can change the lens with less concern of dusts.
Pingang

Not sure about that either. Where there's people (shedding clothes fibres, food crumbs, hairs, dead skin flecks), there's dust.

Of course it's easy to vacuum-clean the whole ISS - just "open the pod-bay doors, HAL".  ;D

Ray
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Harold Clark

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 01:10:50 pm »

As I understand it CCD sensors are sensitive to the high level of electromagnetic radiation present in space, which will knock them out of commission in a short time period. Therefore they are not used in satellite applications, CMOS sensors are immune apparently. I think that some of the credit for the success of CMOS based cameras may be due to early R&D efforts from space based applications.
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yaya

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2012, 03:03:01 pm »

As I understand it CCD sensors are sensitive to the high level of electromagnetic radiation present in space, which will knock them out of commission in a short time period. Therefore they are not used in satellite applications, CMOS sensors are immune apparently. I think that some of the credit for the success of CMOS based cameras may be due to early R&D efforts from space based applications.

CCDs have been in used in satellites long before CMOS showed up in professional cameras, when it was still limited to barcode readers...

There's a D2x there which has a CCD and in fact the actual image was shot with a D2x, about 3 weeks ago...
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 06:28:25 pm by yaya »
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ondebanks

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2012, 07:59:54 pm »

As I understand it CCD sensors are sensitive to the high level of electromagnetic radiation present in space, which will knock them out of commission in a short time period. Therefore they are not used in satellite applications, CMOS sensors are immune apparently. I think that some of the credit for the success of CMOS based cameras may be due to early R&D efforts from space based applications.

Virtually every Hubble Space Telescope image you've ever seen has been taken with a CCD or array of CCDs (there have been a couple of specialised non-CCD UV and IR imagers too, but their results rarely made the press). The WFPC2 workhorse camera had 4 CCDs and operated successfully in space for 15 years before it was removed to make room for its successor, the WF3 upgrade.

CCDs are highly efficient cosmic ray "detectors" (this is an unwanted property!), so above Earth's atmosphere the images become quickly peppered with spikes and streaks. A raw Hubble long exposure has so many hits that it almost looks obliterated. But we simply stack lots of them with statistical filters which operate on the principle of "lightning doesn't strike the same place twice" - given say 10 identical exposures, then at any given pixel position there will be at most 1 or 2 cosmic ray hits. Such pixels are easily detected and their signal is discarded from the stack.

Prolonged exposure to this radiation flux does have an "aging" effect on a CCD, increasing its average dark current rate. Since the CCD is massively cooled anyway, this is not much of an issue. Charge transfer efficiency also worsens somewhat. But it would not be true to say that they are knocked out of commission by any of this.

Ray
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Harold Clark

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2012, 08:34:24 pm »

Thanks Ray and Yaya for the correction. I had read this about CCDs and cosmic rays but obviously it wasn't accurate information. I always appreciate the opportunity to learn new things, even more so when it helps correct misconceptions.
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Pingang

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2012, 01:19:52 am »

Thanks, good to know more.

I am still not convinced. The image looks to be a wide angle shot so if earth were the background it would be rather small, at least the clouds will be a lot smaller and yet the cloud looks so close and big, anyway, the picture looks strange. I just think it does not make sense to bring so many cameras there, the weight and space would be more important for instruments.

Pingang




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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Medium Format Digital in space...
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2012, 01:26:04 am »

Hi,

I would expect CMOS circuitry to be more sensitive to radiation damage as it has more small components. Least not forget, the astronauts are quite sensitive to cosmic radiation, too.

Best regards
Erik

Virtually every Hubble Space Telescope image you've ever seen has been taken with a CCD or array of CCDs (there have been a couple of specialised non-CCD UV and IR imagers too, but their results rarely made the press). The WFPC2 workhorse camera had 4 CCDs and operated successfully in space for 15 years before it was removed to make room for its successor, the WF3 upgrade.

CCDs are highly efficient cosmic ray "detectors" (this is an unwanted property!), so above Earth's atmosphere the images become quickly peppered with spikes and streaks. A raw Hubble long exposure has so many hits that it almost looks obliterated. But we simply stack lots of them with statistical filters which operate on the principle of "lightning doesn't strike the same place twice" - given say 10 identical exposures, then at any given pixel position there will be at most 1 or 2 cosmic ray hits. Such pixels are easily detected and their signal is discarded from the stack.

Prolonged exposure to this radiation flux does have an "aging" effect on a CCD, increasing its average dark current rate. Since the CCD is massively cooled anyway, this is not much of an issue. Charge transfer efficiency also worsens somewhat. But it would not be true to say that they are knocked out of commission by any of this.

Ray
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Erik Kaffehr
 
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