Michael, have I missed your 5D3 review?

[Hans Kruse]

Sorry Hans, I have seen whole press photo agencies switching to Nikon when the original D3 came out. And I'm talking about major European agencies. The provide the photographers with the complete gear and as they cover everything, sports as well, we are talking about getting rid of tons of gear up to 600mm lenses. And buying new stuff.

Yes, Nikon regained some of the lost ground with the D3 which was good for competition. My reasoning above was not really meant to relate to the professional agencies and such. I don't think they really buy because of the reviews, they buy for different reasons like support, price, quality of gear and probably to some degree what their photographers like.

[BernardLanguillier]

Yes, Nikon regained some of the lost ground with the D3 which was good for competition. My reasoning above was not really meant to relate to the professional agencies and such. I don't think they really buy because of the reviews, they buy for different reasons like support, price, quality of gear and probably to some degree what their photographers like.

Yes, I don't think so many people will switch to Nikon, but the one close friend I have shooting the 5DII till now for jewelry and landscape has just purchased a D800 + 85mm f1.8 instead of the 5DIII/5DX he was planning to buy. He seems to like the image quality and AF, he is less of a fan of D800 live view.

He will keep his Canon body and lenses and use the Nikon when he needs more resolution.

Many Canon photographers already use Nikon lenses like the 14-24 f2.8 using adapters, this makes the addition of a D800 to their arsenal even less painful.

It seems our friend Josh was considering going this route before he discovered that the D800's ergonomics were not to his liking.

Cheers,
Bernard

[heinrichvoelkel]

they buy for different reasons like support, price, quality of gear and probably to some degree what their photographers like.

Actually they give a s..t about what their photographers like. But they buy, if the gear gives them a competitive edge and the D3 High ISO performance did.

Price is no point, if you buy in these quantities.

[Josh-H]

It seems our friend Josh was considering going this route before he discovered that the D800's ergonomics were not to his liking.

Correct - apart from the fact I was not interested in Nikons 14-24mm - I was planning to use a few Zeiss Primes. BTW: It was not just the ergonomics that I found unpalatable on the D800E.

[BernardLanguillier]

Correct - apart from the fact I was not interested in Nikons 14-24mm - I was planning to use a few Zeiss Primes. BTW: It was not just the ergonomics that I found unpalatable on the D800E.

By the way, did you correct your statement about the lack of weather sealing of the D800 memory card door? That was frankly a bit misleading.

It can be seen by looking at the camera and also here:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d800-d800e/images/weathersealing.jpg

Cheers,
Bernard

[Josh-H]

Bernard I frankly don't care what the marketing BS says: the reality is I have direct experience with a good friend who has already seen the memory slot fill with water. Yes he dunked it, but only momentarily. In point of fact the camera battery compartment also filled with water! And the camera is DEAD. So, no. I do not consider the camera 'sealed' and especially not compared to a 1Ds mk3 or D3/4.

As I have already posted (and I'm getting tired of repeating myself) I had a d800e for a week and have serious doubts about its sealing after using it. Heck just look at the flash and tear joystick! Weather sealed? Laughable!

There is no way I would trust a d800/e in the sort of environments I work in.

Suggest you get over it and move on since I trust direct experience and evidence over spurious marketing and no amount of fluff will convince me otherwise.

If you don't believe me then email me and I will share with you my own raw file comparisons of the d800e vs the 1dsmk3 since I used my own house as the test and you can check out the exif for yourself.

I've already said the d800e sensor is amazing - and it is. It's just the body that's an abortion.

Btw sorry for typos I'm at the APPA judging and on my iphone

[BernardLanguillier]

Bernard I frankly don't care what the marketing BS says: the reality is I have direct experience with a good friend who has already seen the memory slot fill with water. Yes he dunked it, but only momentarily. In point of fact the camera battery compartment also filled with water! And the camera is DEAD. So, no. I do not consider the camera 'sealed' and especially not compared to a 1Ds mk3 or D3/4.

As I have already posted (and I'm getting tired of repeating myself) I had a d800e for a week and have serious doubts about its sealing after using it. Heck just look at the flash and tear joystick! Weather sealed? Laughable!

Weather sealed (ability to resists normal exposure to rain) and water proof (ability to withstand immersion) are 2 different things, correct?

A camera that is water proof is of course weather sealed, but you cannot say that a camera that is not water proof is therefore not weather sealed, correct?

-> It must be my Cartesian education, but I don't understand why you keep quoting an issue resulting from lack of water proofness as a proof of lack of weather sealing .

I understand you generic concern trusting important work to a new platform, but I would say that overall Nikon has an excellent track record in terms of delivering on their promises on the water sealing front. On the 4 points you quoted:
- it seems we now agree that the memory card has weather sealing on it (that is important because at least you won't lose the images you already took),
- you have to look real well to see it, but the battery door has a seal on it also, the whole area at the edge of the battery door is a seal,
- the joystick is sealed as well, you can also see this on the image provided,
- the flash is not and might die but there is no reason to think it would affect the functioning of the rest of the camera because it is mechanically isolated from it.

Cheers,
Bernard

[uaiomex]

As I said. Too bad for DPR that the count came to be the same 82% of the D800.  I agree with you. Switching systems is so inconvenient that is out of the question for most pros. Which coincidentally is my case. On amazon ownership of DPR, tweaking a bit the results to coincide with the D800 is not that crazy to think. No cameras in recent history have generated such fanboyism and such passionate comparisons. Let's remember that conservatism is common denominator  for all corporate America. Some DPR members have jokingly suggested that the Canon FF forum should be called: 1D, 5D and D800!  Lol!!!
Eduardo

Rather than rant about the overall rating which is a number made up from the individual scores by some formula (like the DxOMARK also is), you should really take a look at the details of the review. It is pretty silly to believe that buyers of cameras in this price range are bought by people who don't even evaluate the details and how many would buy such a camera without a history of cameras before and lens systems? The first time buyers in this class are not that many I think. I believe most of the sales will be from people who already own a Canon camera with lenses that happen to have a Canon lens mount. A (much) smaller amount will come from people switching systems.

If you can buy into the logic above, then do you really think a rating on Dpreview slightly higher or lower (compared to the D800) would make a difference in the sales? The chance that somebody switches system rather than upgrading I would believe is in the 1-5% band and could go both ways. Just from my own connections very few have switched systems over the years as soon as they had bought into a system. I have seen a few switching to Canon from Nikon and back again. I don't remember any who have switched from Canon to Nikon and only one who switched from Canon to Sony. That is out of many hundreds of photographers. I have seen a number of who have switched to either Canon or Nikon from other systems.

If we didn't have the constraints of proprietary lens mounts, I think the situation would be much different. When you buy into a camera system you buy into a photographic ecosystem which makes it much harder to switch. It's of a similar reason why Apple have such strong business about iPhones and iPads. Switching is not that easy.

So even if you and Bernard were right about the reasons for cooking the ratings, it you think about it, it would make very little sense compared to the harm if such methods were leaked to the photographic community. These speculations and rumors are not new (a couple years ago some Canon users felt that Dpreview favored Nikon over Canon), but never has there been any facts to support that.

Again, of you agree that most buyers already are in the Canon system from lower end cameras, then wouldn't it make a lot more sense to look at the ratings of lesser cameras in reviews?

[MrSmith]

do people really care about arbitrary ratings on an amateur website?
actually the 500 comments suggest there are obviously a few sociopaths that do

[Hans Kruse]

As I said. Too bad for DPR that the count came to be the same 82% of the D800.  I agree with you. Switching systems is so inconvenient that is out of the question for most pros. Which coincidentally is my case. On amazon ownership of DPR, tweaking a bit the results to coincide with the D800 is not that crazy to think. No cameras in recent history have generated such fanboyism and such passionate comparisons. Let's remember that conservatism is common denominator  for all corporate America. Some DPR members have jokingly suggested that the Canon FF forum should be called: 1D, 5D and D800!  Lol!!!

Believing that because the rating came to the same number it must be because Amazon owns Dpreview, what else could the reason be If you believe it then fine, I call it confirmation bias.

[Chris Pollock]

do people really care about arbitrary ratings on an amateur website?
actually the 500 comments suggest there are obviously a few sociopaths that do

Do you think maybe you're exaggerating just a wee bit? Getting a little heated while defending the honour of your equipment is hardly a sign of sociopathy. (At least I think it isn't - I'm not a psychologist.)

On the other hand, this thread has already consumed far too much time and effort. Maybe it's time for everyone to go out and take some pictures with their cameras instead of defending their reputations?

[MrSmith]

i'm exaggerating more than "a wee bit".
i have no internet persona or reputation to defend and i'll not be going out to take pictures thanks.
(I will be going out to pick up a new camera body though.)

[Ray]

Since the time these two cameras were announced, I've occasionally visited the relevant Canon and Nikon sections of the dpreview forum, in search of possible links to reliable information on the performance of the cameras.

I've often been amazed at the extent of the self-flagellation on the Canon 5D section of the forum, and the general sense of anguish, disappointment and sense of betrayal expressed in many posts by loyal Canon users who appear to really want to switch brands but know that it doesn't make economic sense because of their heavy investment in Canon lenses.

When this sort of thing happens, some people go into a state of denial. They will search for any image that puts the 5D2 into a better light, compared with the D800, such as a 5D2 in-camera jpeg which has had more or better NR applied and therefore appears less noisy than a D800 in-camera jpeg with less NR applied.

Their frustration has been very apparent, so I'm not at all surprised that the dpreview camera review team, perhaps in discussion with Amazon, would try to find a way of easing the pain of some of their forum members, by awarding both cameras equal overall scores.

Loyalty to brands can have a very strong psychological basis.

[Hans Kruse]

Since the time these two cameras were announced, I've occasionally visited the relevant Canon and Nikon sections of the dpreview forum, in search of possible links to reliable information on the performance of the cameras.

I've often been amazed at the extent of the self-flagellation on the Canon 5D section of the forum, and the general sense of anguish, disappointment and sense of betrayal expressed in many posts by loyal Canon users who appear to really want to switch brands but know that it doesn't make economic sense because of their heavy investment in Canon lenses.

When this sort of thing happens, some people go into a state of denial. They will search for any image that puts the 5D2 into a better light, compared with the D800, such as a 5D2 in-camera jpeg which has had more or better NR applied and therefore appears less noisy than a D800 in-camera jpeg with less NR applied.

Their frustration has been very apparent, so I'm not at all surprised that the dpreview camera review team, perhaps in discussion with Amazon, would try to find a way of easing the pain of some of their forum members, by awarding both cameras equal overall scores.

Loyalty to brands can have a very strong psychological basis.

The kind of posts about DR on dpreview has been going on since the D7000 came out, so this is not new at all. Some posters including myself have tried to put some sense to the many totally exaggerated examples shown. This is not denial, but rather putting it into photographic perspective. I think most Canon users are well aware of the difference in DR and certainly would have liked to see this improved in the 5D mkIII. The art of shadowpulling really came to fame after the D7000 came out (and the other APS-C cameras with the Exmor sensor). There was really no posts about the D3X that I recall. But if you notice it is a few posters (trolls) that create most of the noise on dpreview. In fact Dpreview management have posted on the 5D/1D/1Ds forum and ask posters to stop the 5D vs D800 threads. But they still continue.

This is really out of proportions.  For most photographers the extra DR at low ISO has little to no impact on their work. Experienced photographers know how to deal with DR and the D800 only extends the limit of where you need such techniques. It does not eliminated them.

No matter how much you speculate about reasons why Amazon could have imposed this is still speculations and no proof at all. This is pure speculation and does not make any sense to me. And it doesn't get true just because several think it could be. But that's what conspiracy theories thrive on.

[Ray]

The kind of posts about DR on dpreview has been going on since the D7000 came out, so this is not new at all. Some posters including myself have tried to put some sense to the many totally exaggerated examples shown. This is not denial, but rather putting it into photographic perspective. I think most Canon users are well aware of the difference in DR and certainly would have liked to see this improved in the 5D mkIII. The art of shadowpulling really came to fame after the D7000 came out (and the other APS-C cameras with the Exmor sensor). There was really no posts about the D3X that I recall. But if you notice it is a few posters (trolls) that create most of the noise on dpreview. In fact Dpreview management have posted on the 5D/1D/1Ds forum and ask posters to stop the 5D vs D800 threads. But they still continue.

This is really out of proportions.  For most photographers the extra DR at low ISO has little to no impact on their work. Experienced photographers know how to deal with DR and the D800 only extends the limit of where you need such techniques. It does not eliminated them.

No matter how much you speculate about reasons why Amazon could have imposed this is still speculations and no proof at all. This is pure speculation and does not make any sense to me. And it doesn't get true just because several think it could be. But that's what conspiracy theories thrive on.

As I recall, Hans, there were three main issues on the dpreview Canon 5D forum which together seemed to cause great outrage. They are (1) The significantly greater pixel count of the D800. (2) The significantly greater DR of the D800, and (3) a lower price to boot.

Just one of those factors could have been accepted, but all 3 in one hit was too outrageous for some.

In fact Dpreview management have posted on the 5D/1D/1Ds forum and ask posters to stop the 5D vs D800 threads. But they still continue.

Which is why I don't think one needs to be engaged in conspiracy theories to suggest that dpreview have deliberately skewed the weighting of their review of the 5D3 in order to reduce the heated rivalry between the two cameras on their forum. It's really just common sense. 

[Hans Kruse]

Which is why I don't think one needs to be engaged in conspiracy theories to suggest that dpreview have deliberately skewed the weighting of their review of the 5D3 in order to reduce the heated rivalry between the two cameras on their forum. It's really just common sense. 

Ray, really?, you can't be serious But it's one of the more entertaining theories I have heard

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Asking posters to stop threads? Deliberately trying to reduce rivalry? Why would they do that!? Isn't it every forum owner's wet dream? With D800, DPReview forum posts are once again reaching 150 posts limit... before that, the most interesting discussions barely reached the snore-inducing 48-50 posts.

[imagico]

I just saw the DPR rating has been discussed in such depth here and felt a bit puzzled since AFAIK these unified ratings have a tradition on DPR - the most popular previous case was the Nikon D3s vs. Canon 1DIV.  Apart from the reasons already discussed (actual similarity in performance, commercial interests and appeasement to fans) i would propose a somewhat philosophical explanation: It makes sense for a review site to make the products look similar in performance, this increases demand for reviews in general.

Of course you could also argue if the review cannot make a distinction why should i bother reading it if i need to decide which product to buy.

Or - to paraphrase a famous saying: You can have our reviews with any rating you want, as long as it is the same for all brands.

[uaiomex]

Hans, believing there was no "conspiracy" between DPR and its owner Amazon is also speculative or at best, just a thought, an idea, a belief, as you don't have the facts either. Most likely there are more people that never thought about any conspiracy that those that did, but that doesn't make it a truth either.
Cheers
Eduardo

No matter how much you speculate about reasons why Amazon could have imposed this is still speculations and no proof at all. This is pure speculation and does not make any sense to me. And it doesn't get true just because several think it could be. But that's what conspiracy theories thrive on.

[kers]

DPreview Gold Awards DSLR

2012
Canon EOS 5D Mark III   82%
Nikon D800             82%
Olympus OM-D E-M5      80%

2011
Pentax K5            85%

2010
Canon EOS-1D Mark IV    89%
Nikon D3S            89%


Cameras get worse every year !