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Author Topic: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?  (Read 45255 times)

ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #100 on: March 08, 2012, 04:38:07 am »

Thanks. Can you post the digital file in question as well as a photo of the print out? Can you attach them to the thread? That will help us a lot on what is going on.

(Put the problematic dark print next to some kind of reference print, like that color test print that came out well, and take picture of both together, so we can judge correctly)

I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!
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Farmer

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #101 on: March 08, 2012, 05:40:11 am »

3 or 4 - doesn't actually matter.  Yes, we don't trust you, because it's quite clear you aren't sure about what you're doing.

You're so certain that you're doing everything right - well then keep doing it!
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Phil Brown

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #102 on: March 08, 2012, 08:32:15 am »

I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!
X-Rite Passport Color Checker!  One other point, the Epson Ultra Premium Matte paper does come out of the printer feeling a little damp and curled but dries down quite fast and flattens as it dries.  I seriously doubt that over inking is an issue as long as you use the correct driver setting.  In addition, I have found at all of the Epson supplied profiles are excellent.  You say that you are using the camera JPG to print from.  Why would you do this since you are capturing RAW files?
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #103 on: March 08, 2012, 12:27:03 pm »

Yes, we don't trust you, because it's quite clear you aren't sure about what you're doing.

You're so certain that you're doing everything right - well then keep doing it!

While I am sure I don't know ins and outs of color management I am quite confident I can follow simplest instructions when pointed in their direction and that I don't have to be questioned over that. I hope you are not treating ones around you like you are to me for their own sake. Have a nice one.
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #104 on: March 08, 2012, 12:32:21 pm »

I will have to leave that for tomorrow, I should go back to bed as it is already very late. In the meantime could you please point me in direction of best gray cards / color checkers / etc I would use to assure shots taken are as they should be? Thanks in advance!

Johnny_Boy, thanks to constant derailments by those that look to find something wrong that poster said and then hammering on that to no end I will put this effort on hold until my lightmeter etc arrives. I will post only shots that is guaranteed perfectly exposed etc in order to avoid future derailments (please notice I don't have you in mind, post above by Farmer is representative of what I had in mind). In the meantime thank you and everyone that tried to help.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 12:37:12 pm by ZoranC »
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #105 on: March 08, 2012, 12:35:59 pm »

X-Rite Passport Color Checker!  One other point, the Epson Ultra Premium Matte paper does come out of the printer feeling a little damp and curled but dries down quite fast and flattens as it dries.  I seriously doubt that over inking is an issue as long as you use the correct driver setting.

Thank you!

You say that you are using the camera JPG to print from.  Why would you do this since you are capturing RAW files?

Convenience. RAW for future maximum results from the keepers, JPG for immediate use.
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neile

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #106 on: March 08, 2012, 12:38:34 pm »

Zoran, can you post a copy of the image you're trying to print? Even a small-ish size version would be fine.

Neil
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Neil Enns
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #107 on: March 08, 2012, 12:54:34 pm »

Zoran, can you post a copy of the image you're trying to print? Even a small-ish size version would be fine.

Neil, I will do that once my lightmeter and other gear arrives and I retake shots so there is no further questioning whether shot was correctly exposed.
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neile

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #108 on: March 08, 2012, 12:59:30 pm »

Since the whole thread started with your current image, it would be helpful to see the image that has caused so much discussion.

And, as has been said many times before on this thread in various ways, no matter how "properly exposed" your image is at capture time it will not look the same brightness level when printed. Things in the printing world simply don't work that way.

Neil
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Neil Enns
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #109 on: March 08, 2012, 01:13:22 pm »

With regards to your paper choice, Epson Ultra Presentation Matte, it has a very narrow D-max...which means the blacks are not very black and the whites are rather dim.

Jeff, one question please: Which paper you would recommend for inexpensive evaluation of prints before final print? Thank you in advance!
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #110 on: March 08, 2012, 01:14:33 pm »

And, as has been said many times before on this thread in various ways, no matter how "properly exposed" your image is at capture time it will not look the same brightness level when printed. Things in the printing world simply don't work that way.

I understand that by now. But at least it will eliminate further questions whether I correctly exposed.
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Randy Carone

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #111 on: March 08, 2012, 01:24:43 pm »

I have printed many images that were not properly exposed. I had to adjust the image before I printed it. Once it was properly adjusted in Photoshop, the print came out as expected.
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Randy Carone

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #112 on: March 08, 2012, 01:27:46 pm »

Jeff, one question please: Which paper you would recommend for inexpensive evaluation of prints before final print? Thank you in advance!
It depends if you a printing on gloss or matte paper.  If matte paper, then the Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte will work but be mindful that it has a high content of Optical Brightening Agents (OBAs) as do a number of the other "inexpensive" Epson papers.  These may give the false illusion of a brighter paper than the one you may finally print on if it does not have OBAs.  In addition, I would not be quick to use your camera JPG as an evaluation tool since it represents what the camera maker believes to be a good image in terms of color rendition, balance, etc.  It's far better to work with the RAW file and adjust it to what You think the image should look like.  I don't know if the printing problem you are experiencing has to do with the JPG but I would spend more time on RAW file adjustment.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #113 on: March 08, 2012, 02:32:39 pm »

You are free to continue down the road of being aggressive while not offering anything but riddle me this for a second: If this was not a color management issue how do you explain that test file I was given printed just fine as displayed while shot I have taken didn't when only difference between two is that first one has no color management info in it?
To claim I am being aggressive while not offering anything is absurd. I am very clearly pointing out that your original expectation (regardless of any color management issues) is flawed beyond comprehension and you need to clearly understand that.  If your first print printed out just fine using color management through Photoshop, and your second print didn't using the same correct color management, then indeed that file needs adjusted.  If you want it to match reality, you need to adjust it accordingly with reality in front of you.  If you have taken pictures before and it happen to work, wonderful - that was coincidental.

You are trying to use a print as a method of determining whether or not your exposure is correct, perhaps similar to how a shooter might use polaroid to nail exposure of transparency film.  They didn't do it with light meters etc. but by trial and error.  If you want to "nail" your exposure by producing a print without modifications that matches the scene, you have to do two things.  First you have to get some idea of color management and make sure you are following the steps.  Don't take shortcuts, don't try to understand it (most don't), just make sure you understand how to do it.

Second, and this is where I think your methodology is completely out of touch with any realistic expectations, you will have to use a printer to base your exposure.  Yes, you will have to take a shot, print it without modification, then adjust the exposure no matter what the meter says, until the print "matches".   Of course, this ignores issues like the lighting on the print to be evaluated, as well as the fact with digital linear capture there is no point in this.  There is nothing magic or special about 0ev.  So logically instead of doing this, you could shoot 10 or 12 shots, ignoring the exposure meter and then print them out, picking the "correct" one.  Neither of these makes any sense in a workflow involving digital capture.  I would venture to say that 90% or more of the digital captures made require at least a small ev adjustment when printed to look correct.  That's just the nature of photography (film and negatives were no different, exposure times and color settings of the light source varied with every single negative).

So despite all the other color management discussion in this forum and your attempts to get a grasp on that, you will be much better off if you quit trying to judge exposure based on matching reality to an unadjusted print.

good luck.
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #114 on: March 08, 2012, 02:45:27 pm »

It depends if you a printing on gloss or matte paper.  If matte paper, then the Epson Ultra Premium Presentation Matte will work but be mindful that it has a high content of Optical Brightening Agents (OBAs) as do a number of the other "inexpensive" Epson papers.

Thank you! What you would recommend as inexpensive gloss paper good enough for approximate evaluations leading up toward final print?

In addition, I would not be quick to use your camera JPG as an evaluation tool since it represents what the camera maker believes to be a good image in terms of color rendition, balance, etc.  It's far better to work with the RAW file and adjust it to what You think the image should look like.

I do not plan to use out of camera JPGs for anything that would be close to final print. I use them to be able to quickly view files and for other non-critical things where convenience comes ahead. Prints will come from processed RAW. Only reason why I used JPG for print in this case is because I didn't see it not being processed from RAW as critical.
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ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #115 on: March 08, 2012, 02:52:43 pm »

To claim I am being aggressive while not offering anything is absurd.

We obviously disagree on that. Let me just say this and leave it at that: If I didn't think I was justifiably feeling that you are I wouldn't have said it.

If your first print printed out just fine using color management through Photoshop, and your second print didn't using the same correct color management, then indeed that file needs adjusted.

If with this you are referring to my earlier statement about test shot from link that printed fine while one taken by me didn't let me point out that it seems you have missed part where it was said first one doesn't have any CM info in it while second one does, so I don't think one can assume there was same color management.
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Farmer

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #116 on: March 08, 2012, 04:18:59 pm »

/shrug  I've seen the most experienced users miss something in the workflow that they've been doing for years.  You might consider the instructions simple, but they're not always obvious unless you are familiar with the workflow.

I've never once said your shot was not properly exposed.  I've looked at typical issues that can be overlooked and cause these problems but all along you've point blank refused to accept that there could be anything wrong with what you're doing.  You may be right, but the only way to effectively troubleshoot something is to eliminate possible causes.

I wish you the best of luck - I really do - I hope you get magnificant prints from your printer that look just the way you want them, but I really suggest that you open yourself up to the possibility that maybe, just maybe, it would be worth having some expert eyes check over the way you're doing things.
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Phil Brown

BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #117 on: March 08, 2012, 05:15:09 pm »

Zoran, you have been fortunate that some of the very best people in the printing world (and I certainly don't mean myself) have taken the time and trouble to try to help you.  You have dissed them by complaining that they are being aggressive or treating you like a child.  They have not deserved that.  What appeared to you to be aggressiveness was simply an emphatic rejection of the assumption you are beginning with.  The assumption, that you could feed a well-exposed file to the type of printer we're talking about, and expect a good result (print) without adjustments to the file, and color management, and a myriad of appropriate settings in the software and hardware drivers, is incorrect.  Your insistence on getting a light meter to ensure the accuracy of the initial exposure simply highlights that you remain ensnared in that assumption.  You are not being treated "like a child."  You are new to this, and need to learn all the small steps that must be taken to ensure optimal and consistent results.  The fact that you could hit "Auto" and get a good print on something you fed to the printer has misled you.  A little humility stemming from being new to this would go a long way toward continuing to get the help you want. --Barbara   
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Randy Carone

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2012, 05:44:37 pm »

Thank you Barbara, you are much more kind than the thoughts I've had on this particular thread. It is difficult when someone yells "Help" and when help is offered the response is "I don't need your help".
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Randy Carone

ZoranC

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Re: Prints darker than reality / what my eyes are seeing?
« Reply #119 on: March 08, 2012, 06:04:57 pm »

Your insistence on getting a light meter to ensure the accuracy of the initial exposure simply highlights that you remain ensnared in that assumption.  You are not being treated "like a child."

Barbara, _I_ am the one that is insisting on getting the light meter? Please re-read previous posts.

A little humility stemming from being new to this would go a long way toward continuing to get the help you want.

I think I can say things can go other way around: Technically superior people should remember to be humble and not talk down to those that are new this if they are really interested in helping.
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