Help me to understand the Hartblei lenses line

[fredjeang]

Hi,

I'd like to see clearer on Hartblei lenses present and past, it's a little complicated.

What I understand is this:

- It seems that there are 2 Hartblei companies. There are 2 official websites.
One in Germany, the other one seems to be in eastern Europe.

Their lens line are different.

- What I understand is that the Zeiss lenses are the ones from Germany, with a different design-shape than the Super Rotators I knew before.
They are easy to recognize.

- Is the German design a guarantee that those are indeed Zeiss lenses line? I've heard weired things about some "pirat"-
sorry for the short-cut- that pretend selling Hartblei but aren't officials. I think I read a Stefan Steib's post in Get-Dpi talking about that but didn't understand well the all picture.
Does someone knows about this fact?

- Are there significant built and component quality differences between the 2 manufacturers, the Zeiss and the classics?

- I don't really get the DSLR line. If I understand well, Hartblei can configure a lens for virtually any mount on demand and they have stocks for Canon and Nikon. Now, it seems that they already have a ready line
for CaNikon. Are we talking about MF lens (the dslr line I mean) with a 35mm mount or real 35mm lenses? I have a doubt on this point

- Harblei says that their lenses (the German Zeiss line) are engineered for digital, wich is great. Is it true for both factories or the German version only?

Thanks.

[Walter Schulz]

Not aware of Germany's legal system, I think. Let's put it this way:
For a Germany based company it would not be a bright idea trying to sell something that openly violates anothers company's registered name and/or products. You will be toasted, grilled and eaten in a blink.

Ciao, Walter

[Brian Hirschfeld]

The Hartblei lenses sold at .de are indeed Ziess optics, however the lenses on the Hartblei.com website are made in russian or eastern european factories to obviously different standards then the ziess designed lenses from the much higher quality Hartblei.de which also sells the Hartblei Hcam B1 medium format camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__AQefmaeaQ

[fredjeang]

Not aware of Germany's legal system, I think. Let's put it this way:
For a Germany based company it would not be a bright idea trying to sell something that openly violates anothers company's registered name and/or products. You will be toasted, grilled and eaten in a blink.

Ciao, Walter

I don't really get the story, that's why I asked. The only thing I remember was a post from Stefan in GetDpi forum (can't find it again). Stefan was warning us about some people selling Hartblei lenses on-line but or they were unofficial, or illegal, or unfair competition. It was something like that but I don't remember the details.

Anyway, it seems that there are 2 official companies, the one in Germany, .de and the .com.
It's confirmed that the Zeiss line are only sold in Germany by Stefan.



  

[Walter Schulz]

I just sent him an personal message, containing the link to this thread. I think he is the person you want to ask.

Ciao, Walter

[Stefan.Steib]

Hi Walter - Fred

yes there is a posting on Get DPI - I also posted it here on my Blog :

http://hartblei.blogspot.com/2011/06/clarifications-about-status-of-hartblei.html

Additionally: we are certified by Carl Zeiss and are allowed to carry the "Optics by Carl Zeiss" Logo , which is the next best thing
to Zeiss building the lens themselves. Only the lenses Marked with this Logo are Zeiss lenses.
We buy original Lenskits from Carl Zeiss Oberkochen and you can be assured if someone would try to use this badge without agreement by Carl Zeiss
he would be indeed grilled and sued down to his pants by Carl Zeiss.

The russian (actually Ukrainian) lenses are made with lenskits from Arsenal and a re also looking different, although my partner Sergeji has
done some renewals of the Zeiss versions to the russian ones too.

The history of Hartblei was a bit mixed, but as long as I am with the company now (since 2005) I think all is clear now. There is Hartblei.de and there is Hartblei.kiev.ua.

Beware of Hartblei.com we have tried to get this back but this is incredibly difficult, but these guys don´t sell any Hartblei Products anymore !
I am also using this HCam logo now for our Professional Products, so the Hartblei brand is just a part of the German offerings and only for the Lenses.
The Camera is NOT built in Kiev, it is built in Italy close to Venice by my Partner PK.

There are even more infos about this here:
http://hartblei.de/en/about.htm

if anyone wants to know something about me, he can find it here:

http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=38162969&trk=tab_pro

and our latest infos are continually posted here:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/HCamde/122001131245665

Greetings from right now Munich by mobile
Stefan

[fredjeang]

Stefan, that was clarifying. Thanks.

In fact I was confused with the .com website.

Now it's clear. The Ukrainian company is Hartblei.kiev.ua and not the .com

Looking at the link you provided it's clear that this one is fully active and that's another story than the .com wich seemed to me strange, like a sort of inactive page. Now I got it.

So the German site is exclusively where the Zeiss glasses are and the Hcam too and your partner in Ukraine is not the .com but Hartblei.kiev.ua

If I understand the concept, the German company has been built to make those eastern european lenses (quite good actually, I had some vintage Pentacon, Kiev lenses and old Zeiss on Pentacon 6 mount)
more suitable to the western standards more demanding users. In other words it's like Toyota and Lexus (the luxury division of Toyota). Toyota would be the Ukrainian factory, Lexus the Gernan.
Well, it's my interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong.



Best regards.

[fredjeang]

Also, I'd like to know if the 40mm 4 in what it's called for dslr is indeed a MF construction or a 35mm one? Being the image circle different. I guess that Hartblei being a MF gear this should be engineer for MF and mount-adapted on dslr. Is this correct? So the bonus is to use it on dslr as a normal lens and on MF as a wide. But the 35mm mount is fixed no? So isn't it better to get a lens on MF mount and use an adapter on 35mm dslr?

(by the way, saw what this Zeiss lens is capable of, it doesn't joke. Superb! This is serious optic.)

[Stefan.Steib]

Hi Fred

well sort of, but I would say the russian lenses do have their merits - and the price tag - and the Zeiss Versions are the specialists for the Pro Photographer - with the Zeiss Price tag.

The  marketing of a brand is extremely important, this is what I have done the last 7 years, and also the ridiculously low prices that have been charged for the russian versions (in 2005 an 80mm russian TS was 250 $US) have been adopted to normal standards now. This would not have been possible without the proof of quality that the Zeiss versions give.

Like a Mercedes A-Class and a Mercedes S-Class. Both come from the same company.

The russians were so crazy that even the dealers in Kiev tried to undercut the prices from their fellow dealers, Master of nonsense was the american seller at Kievcamera with the lowest dumping prices. OK- History ! I think with this I have saved the company and I fell good about it, because Sergeji and his son Vitalyi, as well as our technicians are doing a very good job with their lenses.

Latest success: Next month our 4/120mm Zeiss Makro will be Lens of the month at german "Photographie" magazine.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan

[Stefan.Steib]

Hi Fred

the 4/40mm is the IF Version of the inside focusing 4/40mm Distagon of the Hasselblad V. The listprice for this lens from The blad was 5800€+ taxes. They are not so common as not many were built. It has an image circle of way over 80mm and a resolution of 200 Lp/mm in the center which is about as sharp as any lens today can be.

Exactly the same lenskits that we use were used by Sinar for the M-Line lenses 40,80 and 120mm which are all marked "Digital" and with full certification.

These are about the best lenses you can put on a mediumformat HCam or 35mm DSLR.
And we do not use adapters for this TS as with these heavy lenses only a fixed barrel can bring the precision for solid and long term performance.

regards
Stefan

[fredjeang]

And we do not use adapters for this TS as with these heavy lenses only a fixed barrel can bring the precision for solid and long term performance.

That's true, and it makes sense.

Thanks again for all those usefull precisions and the time spent to repply.

Highly apreciated.

Best regards from Madrid (with finally a warmer climate than those latest weeks)

[fredjeang]

Interesting.
http://diglloyd.com/articles/Hartblei-pub/Main.html

[Stefan.Steib]

Hi Fred

I may add that Lloyd has bought an 80mm Hartblei Zeiss Superrotator later, he likes it very much and uses it besides his reviews.

I think that says it all..........

Regards
Stefan

[fredjeang]

I also agree that the best was not to do adapters but directly mounted versions because they are the weak part. It's rare to see high quality adapters that would handle as well as a mount solution.

DSLRs have weak mounts (without talking about the new "gadgetery-design" cameras made to receive light plastic lenses). The resistance of the mount section compare to Cine cameras is so so and necessary to take care with certain lenses that are on the limit and do not have the tripod-strap built-in.  

One of the few high-end adapters I know, built on military standarts with very little tolerance, suitable for demanding motion, is this company from Poland: http://fotoakcesoriaen.epoksystem.pl
They build them in EU, they can make on demand. Tolerance precision is generally 0,005 mm and they are made of Duralium.
(you can see that the models that are built for professional lenses to dslrs generally have the built-in thread, wich I think is the correct way to preserve the weak camera mount. The Arri PL has a rod system mount to preserve stability)

These are probably among the best adapters available in the market to date for both still and motion imagery.

Cheers.

[Stefan.Steib]

Hi Fred

the smaller adapters are all difficult for extended usage durability.
So my plan is to make a "Tilt-Shift Solution" significantly bigger , actually some people may call this a camera :-),
a drawing already exists. I hope I can do this either this year or next.
If I will find someone who can build it, I´m sure this will surprise some people.

Lets talk about this in maybe 6 months.......... 

Greetings from beautiful Allgäu

Stefan