Phase One 645DF Camera Upgraded from Mamiya 645AFD11 issues

[Honkyjack]

Hi
i've used a mamiya 645AFD11 for a number of years with a Phase One P30+. have liked the digital back but hated the camera.
I made a decision to upgrade to a Phase One 645DF Camera and move on to an IQ140 back. i especially like the new range of Schneider leaf shutter lenses which will enable me to shoot faster flash synch imagery.
However I am in two minds over the purchase of a new set of lenses.
i have a series of 6 year old Mamiya lenses that i purchased with the original Mamiya camera. i've been given conflicting reports on whether i need to upgrade all my Mamiya lenses to new Phase one digital lenses.
the Phase one agent is adamant that the performance of the old lenses will seriously compromise the performance of the camera and back. whilst some others have said it would the difference would be negligible.
the lenses in question would be a MAMIYA 645AF AF35MM F3.5 as opposed to the new Phase One Phase One AF D Lens 35mm f3.5, also the 45mm, the 150mm and 120 Macro.
i think perhaps the AF lenses may be compromised but i'm uncertain as to whether the manual focus 120mm lens would be better.
any opinion on this to put my mind at ease is greatly appreciated

[Graham Welland]

The 35/3.5 AF is definitely dependent upon your copy. I moved to the 35 D but the difference wasn't huge. My 28 D blows away my 35 D and I'll often shoot with it and crop vs the 35.

The 45 D is an extremely good lens, especially with the P40+.

120 Macro - I doubt that you'll see any significant difference with the D versions at all.

150/3.5 vs 150/2.8 D is also somewhat of a personal choice. The 150D is razor sharp and is probably one of the best Mamiya lenses. However, many folks like the older 150.

I'd see about renting the new glass and trying them. Only you can compare your current lens copies with the newer more expensive glass. If there's a significant difference for you you'll notice pretty quickly.

[ondebanks]

Your lenses are fine -  that "Phase one agent" just wants to make more money off you.

Look at it factually:

(1) The P30+ and the IQ140 have the same sensor size (44 x 33 mm). So you are not asking your lenses to deliver more angular coverage off axis with the new sensor. If the corners are good with the P30+, they'll be just as good with the IQ140.
(2) The pixel size difference between the P30+ and the IQ140 is minimal: 6.8 vs. 6.0 microns. That's only 12% smaller. You won't see the resolution difference at that scale. If your lenses coped with 6.8 microns, they won't fall apart at 6.0 microns!

I'm not saying that the "D" lenses are not better - they may be, in certain shots and at certain f-stops. I'm saying that the *DB upgrade*, in itself, does not call for new lenses.

Ray

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I have all of those lenses, as well as a few others, and most of those lenses are still being made. That said the newer LS lenses, and D (Digital) lenses will preform better, I would agree with the wiser of the individuals that you spoke to in that the different is negligible even with my IQ180 which certainly would've out preformed the lenses if this was the case. I have the 35mm D and I understand this one is actually an improvement.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brianhirschfeldphotography/collections/72157628023708707/
and check out my Hartblie pics, shows even 35mm lenses can stand 80mp!

[Honkyjack]

Thanks for the responses  they're very helpful - to give you some background on myself and my difficulty with decision making here, i'm a mid to end career, studio-based photographer, shooting fashion, fitness (set up action in the studio) and product (very different conditions to the fitness shoots), i have an inhouse operator/retoucher and don't get over-involved in the post-production apart from the creative direction, i'm not really part of the digital age and if i'm honest, as i don't retouch i find some of the technical (as opposed to aesthetic) evaluation a challenge.
having read the responses i certainly now think replacing my Mamiya 35mm f3.5 and 150mm f3.5 is unnecessary. i do use the the 35mm a lot, but as i'm also buying the AFD 28mm f4.5 i suspect the 35 will not come out of the camera bag too much. for the 150, i've just never liked it, as portrait images always look better on my canon with a 85 1.2L and so i resort to this. maybe if i want to consider taking portraits/fashion outside the studio on the Phase One i may consider the LS 110 as a new lens, i'm quite happy shooting on the canon for editorial fashion, but commercial clients may like the extra detail of the phase one. i guess the issue is will i like the V-grip air, i've read it's not too user friendly
Back to the upgrade or not upgrade lens issue, for the 45mm it may be worth the upgrade as i use this a lot for product work.
but i have managed to test a Mamiya 120 Macro against a new Phase One 120 Macro on my P30+ and neither myself nor my retoucher could spot any real difference.
many thanks gareth

[Brian Hirschfeld]

I really like the 210mm f/4 ULD for portraits, its slightly longer then the 150mm, which I have never liked much myself for some reason, its probably my least used lens.

I have been told that the 110mm LS preforms very much like the Hasselblad 100mm 2.2 which is the only lens I genuinely miss from the H system. It was so amazing, there are times late at night where I want to buy another Hasselblad H, just so I can have this lens. Anyway enough of my day dreaming, the 110mm is a great lens and it's certainly worth a look.

If your talking about the PhaseOne 120mm MF D or whatever they call their manual focus one, its the exact same as the Mamiya version, bother are lacking in autofocus but preform amazingly well. The newer PhaseOne 120mm AF macro lens preforms nicely, I don't own it but have demoed it, and it gives you sharp results, but ads the convenience of autofocus, instead of just focus confirmation, which I like.

Personally, When I bought my IQ180, and 645DF, I also ordered the V-Grip AIR, I got the camera, put the V-Grip on and it hasn't come off since. I absolutely love it. I have not tried to update the body firmware through it, or use its AIR remote settings so I cannot speak to those features, but ergonomically, it adds so much to the camera, I honestly can't imagine using the camera for an extended period of time without this. Also it can store an extra battery for the back or draw on this battery to power the body. So not only is it ergonomic but its practical!

If a lens can quantifiably make you money, like you say the 45mm can, then I would have to say thats a no brainer.

[Honkyjack]

good to hear positive feedback on the v-grip, as am concerned this may be a white elephant.
on the lenses sounds like my best bet is to save the $ on the 35, 120 & 150 upgrade and stick with the Mamiya's, the resultant savings i can re-invest on a new 110 and still be a few $ better off, but will wait till the new camera and back arrives in 10 days and do a test on the 110 then

[Doug Peterson]

The 35/3.5 AF is definitely dependent upon your copy. I moved to the 35 D but the difference wasn't huge. My 28 D blows away my 35 D and I'll often shoot with it and crop vs the 35.

Agreed.

The 45 D is an extremely good lens, especially with the P40+.

Agreed, and it's one of the less expensive D lenses.

120 Macro - I doubt that you'll see any significant difference with the D versions at all.

Absolutely agreed. Slightly less chromatic aberration when shooting macro stuff with high contrast detail. The 120 non-D was absolutely stellar and when you improve on a stellar lens it matters a lot less than when you improve on an ok lens.

150/3.5 vs 150/2.8 D is also somewhat of a personal choice. The 150D is razor sharp and is probably one of the best Mamiya lenses. However, many folks like the older 150.

Graham! I'm surprised we disagree about this. Then again, you know how I feel about the 150/2.8. I like the 150/2.8 D as much as any lens on any platform. It's that good in my opinion. If you've been putting down your kit because you aren't impressed by the look compared to an 85/1.2 then I would BEG you to try out the 150/2.8 D; I think it will knock your socks off.

Don't get me wrong, the 150/3.5 is a nice lens, especially for the price you can get it for. But the 150/2.8 is in a league of it's own.

I'd see about renting the new glass and trying them. Only you can compare your current lens copies with the newer more expensive glass. If there's a significant difference for you you'll notice pretty quickly.

Renting from the dealer before hand is the sensible choice here. We let clients come to our studio to do testing for free in our studio, and do rental-towards-purchase if they want to take it with them. We also offer 48 hour returns without any hassle. I'm sure  your dealer can arrange something similar.

V-Grip has been a real mixed bag. I think it's because so much of it's usability is an ergonomics issue and that is very personal to each person. We have plenty of customers who tried a V-Grip and just plain did not like it - it didn't fit in their hands and didn't feel balanced to them. We have plenty of other customers who tried it once, fell in love, and now have it permanently attached - as Brian does. For sure, I'd strongly recommend you get your hands on it (literally) if at all possible before buying. You may love it. You may not. Make sure to try it with and without the leather hand strap as I can't stand using it without the hand strap but I know customers who can't stand using it with the hand strap. The built-in Air transmitter is REALLY cool if you have or are thinking about getting Profoto Air strobes (you can also use it with other strobes by using an Air Transceiver on each pack, but of course the most elegant is directly to Profoto Air units - no cables, no batteries, no hassles, just works)

So in summary, please try the 150/2.8 and let us know what you think! If you have time/money try the 45D. Don't get a V-Grip until you've tried it. Don't bother upgrading the 120 unless chromatic aberration is causing you major issues and only upgrade the 35mm if you have time to compare yours to theirs.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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[Doug Peterson]

good to hear positive feedback on the v-grip, as am concerned this may be a white elephant.
on the lenses sounds like my best bet is to save the $ on the 35, 120 & 150 upgrade and stick with the Mamiya's, the resultant savings i can re-invest on a new 110 and still be a few $ better off, but will wait till the new camera and back arrives in 10 days and do a test on the 110 then

The 110/2.8LS is an excellent portrait lens as well. I prefer the 150/2.8D myself but that comes down a lot to preference. I generally shoot with full frame backs (since I can select anything off our rental shelf that's not in use) and 150/2.8D is my preference for tight portraits with those full-frame backs. But I'll admit here in the late night I forgot that you were using a 1.3 crop sensor, so 150 may be a bit on the long side for you if you prefer an 85/1.2 on a FF Canon.

But I'd still strongly encourage you to try the 150D when you try the 110LS.

For quick reference (using our Focal Length Calculator):

IQ140 (1.3 crop sensor)
IQ140 with 150mm = 5DII with 120mm
IQ140 with 110mm = 5DII with 85mm

IQ160 (full frame)
IQ160 with 150mm = 5DII with 95mm
IQ160 with 110mm = 5DII with 70mm*

*Numbers rounded for easier reading; actual values are 118, 87, 96, 71. Both numbers based on diagonal rather than height or width; because of the difference in aspect ratios (4:3 vs. 3:2) the numbers are a bit different if using height or width instead of diagonal.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Mamiya Leaf, Leica, Arca Swiss, Cambo, Profoto, LaCie, Canon, TTI, Broncolor & More

National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter | RSS Feed
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off

[Graham Welland]

Graham! I'm surprised we disagree about this. Then again, you know how I feel about the 150/2.8. I like the 150/2.8 D as much as any lens on any platform. It's that good in my opinion. If you've been putting down your kit because you aren't impressed by the look compared to an 85/1.2 then I would BEG you to try out the 150/2.8 D; I think it will knock your socks off.

Don't get me wrong, the 150/3.5 is a nice lens, especially for the price you can get it for. But the 150/2.8 is in a league of it's own.

Don't worry Doug, I don't think that WE disagree regarding the 150/2.8D, it's just some of the feedback I've heard from others. Personally I'm a big fan of the 2.8D as it is super sharp - my preference in glass vs more romantic portrait looks.

[Alan W George]

+1

Your lenses are fine -  that "Phase one agent" just wants to make more money off you.

Look at it factually:

(1) The P30+ and the IQ140 have the same sensor size (44 x 33 mm). So you are not asking your lenses to deliver more angular coverage off axis with the new sensor. If the corners are good with the P30+, they'll be just as good with the IQ140.
(2) The pixel size difference between the P30+ and the IQ140 is minimal: 6.8 vs. 6.0 microns. That's only 12% smaller. You won't see the resolution difference at that scale. If your lenses coped with 6.8 microns, they won't fall apart at 6.0 microns!

I'm not saying that the "D" lenses are not better - they may be, in certain shots and at certain f-stops. I'm saying that the *DB upgrade*, in itself, does not call for new lenses.

Ray

Here I did a quick test (back in August when I first received the IQ180) with an SK 47mm (centered) on a Cambo/IQ180 against a Mamiya AFD II  with a (plain old) Mamiya 45mm (mirror lockup and timered) with same back (IQ180) with f/13 or there abouts on both (other f-stops may reveal more of a difference).  But I was surprised that even given these parameters the difference was very marginal.

Here is the test shoot at "Fit"....  (SK 47mm on top)


Here at 100% near center/focus point....   (SK 47mm on top)


Here at 100% upper right corner...   (SK 47mm on top)