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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1083083 times)

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #620 on: April 08, 2012, 02:47:09 pm »

Thinking about a  short drive to your place if you then sell me your 7900.

So many things hang in the balance of Vladimir's results.  If his machine successfully clear's our clogs, meaning then that these clogs which haunt "select" X900 printers actually ARE clogs, then I expect SacredEarth will not be selling his 9900.  Actually I suspect no one will be selling their X900 printers, rather they will be fixing them.  This of course would mean I'd be forced to hire the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit models I promised to about nineteen pages ago, to host another Epson X900 tutorial video - this one on how to safely remove your printhead. 

But if Vladimir's machine is not successful, suggesting then that this is after all a piezoelectrical failure and not a clogging issue at all - well then things will be very different.  Of course we'll perform an autopsy to confirm the actual cause of printhead death, but then yes tmphoto, the game of musical printers may actually commence.

...What a cliff hanger

wade4916

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #621 on: April 14, 2012, 07:10:12 pm »

Let me know if you decide to sell your pro 9900.
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jeverton

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #622 on: April 14, 2012, 10:04:34 pm »

But if Vladimir's machine is not successful, suggesting then that this is after all a piezoelectrical failure and not a clogging issue at all - well then things will be very different.  Of course we'll perform an autopsy to confirm the actual cause of printhead death, but then yes tmphoto, the game of musical printers may actually commence.

...What a cliff hanger

With a bit of luck April showers will bring us all some May flowers with a resolution on the 7900 print head...
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #623 on: April 15, 2012, 03:14:47 pm »

With a bit of luck April showers will bring us all some May flowers with a resolution on the 7900 print head...
If you have some rain, send it to the Wasington DC area; it's been bone dry here for about a month now!
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out - CONTACT!
« Reply #624 on: April 19, 2012, 11:49:44 am »

Who else find's it fascinating that in all this time, in all these responses with all these questions, no one from the other side of the great Epson dividing wall has chimed in to help?

For sure some people want to.  I'm thinking there have to be employees, techs, customer service people, engineers...  somebody.  There's got to be somebody who feels compelled to put their job in jeopardy, to put themselves on the unemployment line - all for the good of this X900 clog clearing mystery that so many of our Epson printers struggle with.

Doesn't that sound like a lead-in..?


Well it finally happened.  One single rebel soldier has made it over the wall, and offered us some new perspective and knowledge.  I am to have a telephone conversation with this rebel soon.  I am told the call will come from an untraceable number, and the voice will be computer generated.  The soldier's name;  "HAL 9000"




Also simultaneously I have heard from Vladimir.  He says the machine shop has indeed finished his X900 bracket system for mounting our heads to his Ultrasonic Cleaning Machine, and that the brackets have been shipped.  They are in transit to Vladimir now.

So yes boys and girls, the next chapter of our great saga is about to begin!



.

gwhitf

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out - CONTACT!
« Reply #625 on: April 19, 2012, 12:52:06 pm »

I am to have a telephone conversation with this rebel soon.

Thank you for your efforts, Eric. My 7900 sits now, the same for months, as the world's largest Door Stop. The pendulum swings back and forth from: Dumpster or Wait It Out. Your humor about it all also makes this a bit more tolerable. Thank you.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #626 on: April 19, 2012, 03:34:10 pm »

The soldier's name;  "HAL 9000"

I was expecting HAL 9900, or his little brother HAL 7900.
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #627 on: April 19, 2012, 06:00:48 pm »

I was expecting HAL 9900, or his little brother HAL 7900.

can't believe I missed that...


Dammit!!!

chaddro

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #628 on: April 21, 2012, 12:59:42 am »

A word on Auto Cleaning

So I do a nozzle check and have 3 gaps in LLK. Thinking I could solve this with a simple 8x10 of 240/240/240 RGB  I opened up PS and did just that (my usual response to a minor clog on either my 3800/7800/4000 which always did the trick).

Well, I had the AUTO CLEANING turned ON ... you know, supposed to fix those pesky gaps for you. I thought I'd give it a try after all since I was printing out 22 18x24's for a client and didn't want to worry about clogs (yeah, right... I'll get back to that). Machine does it's cleaning thing and then prints out the 8x10 of light gray.

Curious, I print out the Job Information to see if the printer ONLY used ink in the clogged head, or at least the pair. NOT SO! The printer used .4 ml of every color and 1.2 ml for the Y/LLK pair! 4.8 ml if ink for 3 gaps in LLK. Amazing! The 8x10 swatch used only .23 ml (total for all colors) and probably would have done the job.

So AUTO CLEANING if OFF now.  I'm sure I won't have to wait long for the next clog to try out 8x10 swatch :p

Now back to my print job... 21 of the 22 prints were fine, but 1 had some light banding from what must have been a clog that the printer didn't detect or correct. And NO, I didn't get a "Clog Detected" warning from the printer.

It seems that printer will only do an auto clean if the clog is detected at the START of a print. If the clog happens mid-print, it just keeps going. It also seems the printer will not properly detect deflected nozzles either even though it is supposed to do this from what I've read.

Anyone else have similar experiences? Oh, and nearly full 700ml cartridges in the machines, so no excuse of ink starvation.

And just to rant a bit more... Neither of my 3800/7800/4000 would develop a clog in mid print once I had a clean nozzle check. But this 9890 seems to "clog" just about any time regardless of how many prints you are doing at once. This is a serious blow to one's confidence in the machine! I have printed jobs of 80-100 tabloid swap proofs for catalog work on my 4000 and thought nothing of cuing up the job and hitting the sack for the night. 

Am I exaggerating? I don't know. I've heard people talk about their machines "settling down" after a while. Maybe these things need a break in period?

-chadd

PS: On the positive side my Client was very happy with the prints (well, except the banded one that I'll reprint this weekend). New print job coming Monday too!
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jeverton

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #629 on: April 22, 2012, 10:03:24 pm »

Maybe the Apple Siri meets Siri is more appropriate for this 21st century x900 series dilemma ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBRXA8zmJr8&feature=fvwrel

I too also appreciate the humor as we patiently wait the final word.

Jeff
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elisabeth russell

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #630 on: April 25, 2012, 04:26:16 pm »


I've been following this thread religiously--having similar issues with my 9900 right now (and some major ones from the beginning)...it's not even 3 years old and in the first year had to have Epson out numerous times; replaced main board, aid board, pump cap, wiper, sub board and eventually the print head. It was fine for a while. I've had great luck with my geriatric 7600s and 4800s and 9600s in the past and was optimistic that this was a fluke since Epson makes some high quality products and it was behaving pretty well. Long story short, we let the warranty expire. Stupid. And almost immediately it started acting up, getting progressively worse until last week the LC and Y channels are almost completely clogged. I've become obsessed. So, fingers are crossed that you'll get to the bottom of this Eric! 
Cheers,
Lis Russell
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #631 on: April 27, 2012, 09:41:47 pm »

I saw a comedian start a skit once by saying, "Listen, you've got to believe what I'm about to tell you is true or this joke just doesn't work."  

There's a lesson in that I've always thought...


In the spirit of past lessons learned I am starting my skit here just the same; you've got to believe what I'm about to tell you or this just won't work.  Since the inception of this thread I have been on a journey for knowledge that will reveal the actual answers to our nozzle clogging issues, not just the speculative ones.  I want to know what they are, where they come from, and how to avoid them.  This journey of course evolved over time, eventually branching into various new realms of potential technical mysteries that would easily give Einstein a migrane headache lasting more consecutive days than it took God to create our entire world.

By the way I'm not sure any of you know this but Ernst Dinkla actually IS God.

Curiously, what's become the most fascinating element in all this to me is not actually technically based at all.  It's the barrier.  The wall if you will.  The great Epson divide between those that know (Epson side of the wall), and those that need to know (users side of the wall).  For sure I am not the only one who finds it a painfully daunting reality that of the many thousands of times this thread has been read, pondered, argued and responded to, not one person from the other side of this great divide has chimed in to shed a proper light on the subject.  The more we read, the more we right, the higher up this ladder of knowledge we seem to get - the farther into mystery this ladder seems to lead us.  The more we learn, the less we realize we actually know.  This great wall, for those of you without extended warranties (like myself), might too leave you feeling a little...




I don't know about you but I do OK in the rain.  This quest for knowledge has been a quiet one for weeks now, but that's about to end.  Ladies and gentlemen please fasten your seat-belts and kindly keep your arms in the vehicle at all times.  


It's been a bitch aligning time zones but today it finally happened - I got the call from .  His real name is not HAL 9000.  It's been changed here, by me, to protect him from the mother ship.  HAL is, after all, from the other side of the great divide.  And HAL has shared with me information which is usually left sealed behind the man-made walls that Epson built, and rather aggressively maintains.

First, there is no Epson X900 LLK printhead channel problem.  There is however a problem - it's just not specific to color, ink, or channels.  The problem, or challenge, is quite simply the fact that X900 heads have smaller nozzles.  Period.  Initially there was indeed a color specific nozzle clogging problem, but it was GREEN not LLK.  Apparently green ink is used the least, which leaves it far more vulnerable to the very same challenges that all of our X900 nozzles face.  This color specific problem was successfully addressed years ago by Epson via changes in ink only.  Lastly, and I can think of one person right off the bat who is likely going to shoot flaming darts at me for sharing this, straight from the largest horse in the Epson Technical corral's mouth - the current X900 printhead clog reporting average aims specifically toward no specific color at all.

Second, who here remembers our first prognosis of the X900 printhead clear-nozzle-maintaining dilemma?  Does the name "Wiper Blade" ring a bell?  How bout Flushing Box, is that doing anything for you?  ...Still nothing?  OK try this, and properly enunciate for me - it'll help you remember.  "Dried up, funky, tar-like, nasty riddled splooge left on your printhead's face from multiple repeated-a-hundred-times-too-many power cleanings ended with a cockeyed wiper blade from hell doing more harm than good to your ever so precious printhead, which just so happens to be DYING to get clogged."  ...That did it didn't it.  You remember now.  The general consensus from the professional world of Epson service and repair states that there is a direct connection between user neglect, and X900 nozzle clogs.  

Turns out we were on the right track with the whole wiper blade changing thing.  But there is more to this than just the wiper blade.  Apparently we need to stay on top of something else too - which is more involved but just as important.  The Flushing Box.  You saw this in the wiper changing video I made.  It's the colorful screen & foam "dumping station" with all the rectangular rubber seals that keep your head from drying while docked.  Apparently this screen has a tendency to clog as well.  Once clogged the ink being forced through your printhead's face during power cleanings does not properly/entirely get drained through the screen and to your maintenance tank - away from your printhead face during docking periods, or more importantly in the case of clogging - during power cleanings.  Effectively what is happening is simple; during cleanings WE ARE IN FACT FORCING tar-like half dried ink left on our Wiper Blades and splashed back up from mucky puddles in our dirty neglected Flushing Boxes BACK THROUGH THE TINY NOZZLE OPENINGS IN OUR PRINTHEADS!

Is anyone else horrified right now?  Suddenly it all makes sense, doesn't it - how sometimes cleanings leave you with more clogs than you had to begin with.  Well now we know why.

Third, no one you ask at Epson will admit to this but Epson has their own cleaning solutions for cleaning these printheads.  You can't buy it because it is yet another Epson thing that does not exist, but it does, you just can't have it, but you can, you just can't tell anybody that you have it, or where you got it from.  Sorry for saying this, I usually have such a nice attitude, but WTF.

I can tell you that this cleaning solution is so powerful it comes colored RED, and it comes in two parts.  One part, the cleaning part, is RED.  The second part is the neutralizer.  The idea is to run neutralizer through your head until no RED traces exist.  The use of this solution is suggested by Epson, to Epson, to be used only as a last resort.  Apparently this RED cleaning solution has a bit of an attitude, and can do damage if used improperly.  Or even when it's used properly, sometimes..  

Fourth, the reason Epson service techs replacing printheads under warranty (be they Decision One or anyone else certified by Epson to do warranty work) take your original head back with them instead of leaving it with you is simple:  They have to return them to Epson.  In fact every part being replaced by Epson under warranty, no matter how trivial, gets returned to Epson at Epson's expense - which think about it, sometimes shipping alone makes that a loss if the part is tiny enough.  Doesn't matter - Epson police this policy with great diligence.  They do not want service guys selling used Epson parts on ebay or anywhere else.

Fifth,
Sixth,
Seventh,
Eighth,

I could go on for hours but I don't want to wake up with a horse head on my pillow.  Suffice to say we all know a little more than we did five minutes ago.  The general consensus of those in the know is that our head, which is being cleaned by Vladimir in Canada right now, has a 50/50 chance of coming back operational.  Apparently there are very delicate barrier walls made of thin almuninum-foil-type material which separate ink channels from one another.  If these barriers are compromised by too much pressure being forced through the head, you can imagine what will happen - Ezmorelda's red lipstick will come out looking like some torrid mix of red/black muck.  The other consensus, from those in the know, is that our particular clogging problem is most likely ink related, not piezoelectical.  


This post took me hours to write, which is disgusting.  

« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 09:54:03 pm by Eric Gulbransen »
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na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #632 on: April 27, 2012, 09:55:01 pm »

So, are you saying my initial gut feeling about the head when it comes back from V is going to come true? I hope not. Is the 7900 never going to see a print come out in your presence?
That would just be too sad. Thanks for posting, even if it did take you an hour to write. At least I'm glad you still have your sense of humor about you. I probably wouldn't be so inclined.
I want to know the minute that head comes back or after testing from the big V.
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Ken Doo

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #633 on: April 27, 2012, 11:03:57 pm »

This makes sense.  Thank you, Eric.

chaddro

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #634 on: April 27, 2012, 11:28:21 pm »

Great info Eric!

One question: How do we clean the flush box?

This was easy on the 4000/7800 printers. But how to GET TO IT on the 9900's??
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tmphoto

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #635 on: April 27, 2012, 11:53:26 pm »


Second, who here remembers our first prognosis of the X900 printhead clear-nozzle-maintaining dilemma?  Does the name "Wiper Blade" ring a bell?  How bout Flushing Box, is that doing anything for you?  ...Still nothing?  OK try this, and properly enunciate for me - it'll help you remember.  "Dried up, funky, tar-like, nasty riddled splooge left on your printhead's face from multiple repeated-a-hundred-times-too-many power cleanings ended with a cockeyed wiper blade from hell doing more harm than good to your ever so precious printhead, which just so happens to be DYING to get clogged."  ...That did it didn't it.  You remember now.  The general consensus from the professional world of Epson service and repair states that there is a direct connection between user neglect, and X900 nozzle clogs.  
What you were told is not new information specific to the x900 printers.
A x600, x800, x880 Epson printer may clog because a) you don't use it often and fix clog problems with cleaning cycles (including power cleanings), b) The printer has not being used for long time and needs manual head cleaning and c) the printer has been in use continuously for several years.
If you service the cleaning unit the problem will go away (except for printers that have not been in use for a long time which require cleaning of the ink lines and head as well)
Quote
Third, no one you ask at Epson will admit to this but Epson has their own cleaning solutions for cleaning these printheads.  You can't buy it because it is yet another Epson thing that does not exist, but it does, you just can't have it, but you can, you just can't tell anybody that you have it, or where you got it from.  
My opinion is that the x900 nozzles are so delicate that there is no approved cleaning solution. Older printers had cleaning solutions available to service technicians and documented in the service manual but not the x900 printers.

I am looking for a cheap a x900 printer with nozzle problems to do controlled testing on the effect of different cleaning methods and cleaning solutions (using the ones still printing fine).


« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 11:59:21 pm by tmphoto »
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iladi

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #636 on: April 28, 2012, 02:35:25 am »

Ok, eric, all you say it is true. It confirms that a proper cleaning of the whiper and the captop has to be done on a regular basis. But how your inside source explain the clogs during printing? Especialy when i print large areas with solid block of color.
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #637 on: April 28, 2012, 03:53:56 am »

Remember I am not the creator of this information, just the delivery boy.

Chaddro, cleaning the Flushing box is way more involved than cleaning/changing the wiper blade assembly.  I regret having to report that.  Best way is to remove your pump and cap assembly, then remove the Flushing box from the pump and cap assembly once it's out of the machine and on your work bench/kitchen table - which of course would be protected from ink spilling on it by an orderly distribution of your wife's most recent copies of Vogue magazine.  Then once you have the Flushing box in hand, simply clean it with water.

iladi, very good question.  I will ask HAL next time I have him on the line.  In the mean time I offer you this little tid-bit of information which may or may not be directly related to your specific problem;  HAL told me today that the reason Epson is so generous these days about replacing faulty ink carts is the result of what I imagine are their bean counters.  The faulty carts are having a tendency, due to poorly maintained manufacturing tolerances I imagine, of allowing air into the lines through bad seals.  These random pockets of air in the lines cause "clogs", or in this case more appropriately "drop-outs".  Once an air pocket reaches the head you have no ink to fire through your nozzles.  Power cleanings remedy this well, but waste ink, and your solution is only temporary.  That's why these days when you call to complain about a faulty ink cart, nobody breaks your ovaries - they just mail you replacements.

This might also help you iladi;  One of my initial printhead clearing exercises included flushing our lines free of all ink, filling the lines with cleaning solution, and then re-charging the lines again with new ink.  I basically stared at our lines through the entire process.  Much to my surprise the lines do not change their appearance as much as you might expect they would, as new fluid enters or leaves them.  IE; when our lines were clear of ink, and firing clear cleaning fluid through our head and onto paper in nozzle checks - the lines still showed color.  I share this experience with you to suggest that random air pockets in your lines might not be visible viewing the lines externally.  Perhaps this helps you, perhaps it only adds to your frustration.  Either way, I was told today by HAL himself that mid-print "clogs" are typically not clogs at all, but instead air in the lines.  So if cleanings always remedy these "clogs" for you, but they come back - leaving you to go through the process once again at yet another random time - my bet is you have air entering your lines.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 03:57:05 am by Eric Gulbransen »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #638 on: April 28, 2012, 05:09:31 am »

What is going on, pages are disappearing.  Somebody is deleting posts.


Mine are still there and gain value in time.


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 06:40:19 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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designpartners

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #639 on: April 28, 2012, 10:55:30 am »

very interesting update.. makes a lot of sense..

so..I think this raises a few questions..

1. what maintenance SHOULD a USER perform and when?
2. what maintenance SHOULD a user OUTSOURCE and when?

Or if you have a warranty,

3. if you have a warranty, does this affect Q's 1&2?

James

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