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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1083072 times)

rmyers

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #540 on: March 23, 2012, 05:34:00 pm »

Start. A. New. Thread.
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designpartners

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #541 on: March 23, 2012, 07:30:48 pm »

the $1400 warranty is not really as optional as you would think and has to be included as part of the real cost of this machine if you plan to use it more than 365 days.

keep an eye out for deals.. they were available for crazily cheap price - I can't find the deal I got, but I think it was close to 50 bucks! here's one for free http://www.photowholesalers.com.au/forum/topics/bonus-2-year-extended-warranty and another one.. http://blog.creativefolks.sitemaker.com.au/epson-extended-warranty-offer/

I got mine from myepsonprinter.eu

James
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Peter Le

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #542 on: March 24, 2012, 12:03:13 am »

I spent 90% of my working career in the corporate sector.  The companies I worked for had extended service contracts on every piece of office equipment.  My point stands.  I you are printing for commercial purposes make sure you have the necessary coverage on your equipment (you do have insurance on your cameras and lenses don't you?).  It's just good business sense.  If you are in my position and photograph as an avocation and sell a little bit every year, it's less of an imperative.  I also don't see any need to print beyond 17 inches wide.
   
     Alan if I may politely say this is probably why you have a hard time understanding this problem and the average Epson user. Your 90% working career in a large corporate sector has blinded your understanding of who actually owns many of these printers. I would be willing to bet more then 50% of these large format printers are owner by very small one or two person companies, many fine art photographers that help pay for their printers by printing for other photographers. They do not run them 12 hours a day every day and Epson surely was not discouraging these people from buying the printers. If these printers were only owned by large corporate businesses that can afford all kinds of service contracts as you infer Epson would probably go out of the printer business by losing probably more the 50% of their sales.
     Myself any really all the other Epson large format printer owners that I am friends with flat out struggle to stay alive.....but we do it because we love the art and are passionate and dedicated to it. Shelling out another 1400 for a extended service contract is not something to be taken lightly. All the Epsons I have had prior to this were work horses that with a little care just ran and ran and ran. When I stepped up to the new 900 series as many others did Epson did not say anything about getting a extended service contract with these new models because you are really going to need it.
      I don`t know where this is all going to go....and I really doubt Epson is going to acknowledgewledge any problems. Where I am sure they will see it is in loss of future sales. I and many other people I know will be taking a lot closer look at Canon when the next printer is purchased...
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #543 on: March 24, 2012, 12:25:31 am »

I have never bought an extended warranty on household appliances and have spent significant amount over the years on various upgrades (including a kitchen remodelling).  In these cases, I think your assessment is correct.  However with the case of the large format Epson printers, I suspect that most purchasers are either making or trying to make a living printing photographs and other graphics.  Since this is a business and down time is a critical factor as opposed to having a refrigerator go down, purchasing an extended warranty makes sense to me.  The costs can be amortized into the business and built into the costs of goods and services.  Maybe I'm wrong and a lot of these folks just like to print big for their own personal use (maybe they have lots of wall space that needs to be decorated) but if I'm not build the cost into the business plan.

Alan, Speed of service doesn't necessarily depend on whether or not one has an extended warranty. As for building the cost into business overhead, MAYBE this reduced the tax-adjusted cost of the warranty thereby somewhat reducing the insurance premium, but in the final analysis, the cost of it comes out of the bottom line unless it can be fully passed-through to customers. Some owners don't have customers, and for others who do, that may or may not be possible depending. Markets have constraints, especially for small players and even for large ones. You need to be a price-maker and not a price-taker to do this.

Bringing this tangent back to the main theme of this extensive thread, based on previous experience, the probability of needing to draw on these warranties was probably low, why many people haven't bought them. If it's really true that "on average" these new printers are much more exposed to maintenance issues because of design differences relative to their predecessors, then perhaps the risk factor changes and the economics of buying this protection points towards getting it. That means potential customers for a large format printer would need to factor this variable into their shopping alternatives between manufacturers producing machinery that all delivers very high quality results. But as I said, reliable data is still an issue.
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jeverton

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #544 on: March 24, 2012, 10:17:16 am »

 
     I would be willing to bet more then 50% of these large format printers are owner by very small one or two person companies, many fine art photographers that help pay for their printers by printing for other photographers. They do not run them 12 hours a day every day and Epson surely was not discouraging these people from buying the printers. If these printers were only owned by large corporate businesses that can afford all kinds of service contracts as you infer Epson would probably go out of the printer business by losing probably more the 50% of their sales.

     Myself any really all the other Epson large format printer owners that I am friends with flat out struggle to stay alive.....but we do it because we love the art and are passionate and dedicated to it. Shelling out another 1400 for a extended service contract is not something to be taken lightly. All the Epsons I have had prior to this were work horses that with a little care just ran and ran and ran. When I stepped up to the new 900 series as many others did Epson did not say anything about getting a extended service contract with these new models because you are really going to need it.
      I don`t know where this is all going to go....and I really doubt Epson is going to acknowledgewledge any problems. Where I am sure they will see it is in loss of future sales. I and many other people I know will be taking a lot closer look at Canon when the next printer is purchased...

+1 I also echo this POV... As a fine art photographer and printing enthusiast, I did not have the luxury to purchase an extended warranty.  I also did not want to outsource printing which permitted greater output control.
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Jim Coda

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #545 on: March 24, 2012, 11:26:41 am »

keep an eye out for deals.. they were available for crazily cheap price - I can't find the deal I got, but I think it was close to 50 bucks! here's one for free http://www.photowholesalers.com.au/forum/topics/bonus-2-year-extended-warranty

Wow.  Thanks Designpartners.  I think that's quite remarkable.  

In Australia you can buy a 7900 with the Epson two year extended warranty for only $2,090.  In U.S. dollars that's only $2186.  

If you buy a 7900 in the U.S. (B&H - with current $1,000 rebate) it's $3,000 just for the printer plus $1,375 for the two year warranty for a total of $4,375.  

Why is Epson charging U.S. customers nearly $2,000 more for a 7900 printer?  That's twice the price in Australia.  Why doesn't Epson offer the same deal in America?

Jim Coda

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #546 on: March 24, 2012, 12:42:58 pm »

     Alan is very correct in his statements about building these costs into overhead. If you cannot afford the costs of ownership you shouldn't be purchasing these printers in the first place....  I don't buy all this starving artist crap. I'd be willing to bet a good many of the complainers (not all), don't even have a business license and are doing this thinking they can make a few bucks on the side.  Set up a website online, and bingo your a professional photographer, taking business away from legitimate businesses and pros.

I don't know that there is any data or evidence to show that all or most of the people that are having clog problems here are in the printing business.  Many, if not most, are hobbyists or "enthusiasts" who like to photograph and want to do their own printing and want to print wide format.  People like Eric.  They read the Epson X900 brochure that says clogs are a thing of the past.  Now that they own these printers they are finding that clogs aren't a thing of the past.  If anything, they are more common than ever.  I don't know why, but maybe it's because these printers have double the number of channels of previous Epson printers and they create droplets smaller than before (2.5 picoliter versus 3.5 picoliter).  

The way things are going it seems to me that when you get to the 10th or 11th month you should definitely buy the extended warranty (1 or 2 year), expensive as it is, or sell the printer if there is one out there then that you think is better (maybe the next one will actually prove to clog less).  If you have an X900 printer and you don't have a warranty you're pushing your luck, especially if you don't print regularly.    

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #547 on: March 24, 2012, 01:45:26 pm »


  ...Alan is very correct in his statements about building these costs into overhead. If you cannot afford the costs of ownership you shouldn't be purchasing these printers in the first place...

...I don't buy all this starving artist crap. I'd be willing to bet a good many of the complainers (not all), don't even have a business license and are doing this thinking they can make a few bucks on the side.  Set up a website online, and bingo your a professional photographer, taking business away from legitimate businesses and pros.

David



I am an enthusiast.  An amateur photographer.  A starving artist if you will.  This past October I finally decided to get some of my photos printed.  I went to the greatest lab I could find here in the Bay Area.  Amazing place, incredible samples.  It was there that I fell in love with the idea of printing every dam photo I have ever taken.  In the end I could only afford to print twenty.  It cost me fifteen hundred dollars. 

I loved the idea of hanging my photos on my walls.  I loved the look of them as well.  But the closer and more frequently I looked at them, I noticed more and more that they just weren't what I created.  "A little too dark, they clipped the whites, maybe not canvas for that one, I wish I made this one bigger" etc. etc.   But the cost I faced for printing more, larger, and on different mediums was quite a daunting expense for something I was simply passionate about.  Something NOT for business.  So I started reading here, on Luminous Landscape, in the printers papers and inks section.  That's how I learned about printing.  That's how I learned about Epson's great Stylus Pro 7900.  And that's how I found Dan Berg, selling his 7900 for $1,700, which he raved about - stating among other things that it had very little use, which it did.

So this "starving artist" read and read and read about the Epson Stylus Pro 7900.  And the more I read the better it sounded.  No more clogs, no more heaps of wasted ink, easily change from matte black to photo black, incredible resolution, depth and color in prints seeming almost to lift your images off the paper, etc. etc. etc... 

I looked at what I paid to get much smaller versions of my photos printed - $1,500 - and I wasn't entirely happy with the results.  I imagined possessing the freedom myself to experiment with tonal changes, color shifts, different mediums, larger sizes, and so on.  I read, I learned, and I decided to buy Dan's 7900 for $1,700.  I figured one year's worth of printing alone would pay for this printer easily - compared to what I would be paying Bay Photo Lab to print my photos for me.

To me it seemed like a no-brainer.  So I made a mistake I guess, I decided to become a photographer taking business away from legitimate businesses and pros, by printing my own photos myself.  And that's where things went nuclear on me and my genius buddy Steve.  But it's not as bad as you might think..

You see I didn't really pay $1,700 for this 7900.  Steve and I split it.  In fact we have split every expense related to this 7900 so far.  So neither of us are quite a bad off as it seems here.  Plus our Epson clog-spending spree is over now.  If the printheaddoctor (Vladimir) comes through, and our original head prints clog-free, great.  We will all know that our clogs are actually clogs, and maybe I'll buy Vladimir's machine and start a small business offering X900 printhead-saving-solutions for other Epson owners who get cornered by concrete clogs on one end, and ridiculous repair bills on the other - which render their great X900 printers useless piles of junk.  Then also Steve and I can finally start printing like the starving artists we will forever strive to be, but never afford to be. 

But if Vladimir's ultrasonic head cleaning work proves the alternate point - that our clogs are not clogs at all, and our problems are actually piezoelectical, then we will lick our wounds and install this new printhead which we have waiting in the background.  And if this new head installation gets this 7900 printing again, great, we will begin again our endless pursuit of chasing our dreams.

...However if this printer STILL does not work?  Come on I know you want to know our alternate, alternate plan..  That's right, we're going hollywood.  I'm gonna buy three sticks of dynamite, fire up a video camera, and we're gonna launch this exploding fireball of an Epson 7900 off the tallest cliff we can find.  End of hopeless starving artist printing career.

gwhitf

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #548 on: March 24, 2012, 04:58:04 pm »

That's right, we're going hollywood.  I'm gonna buy three sticks of dynamite, fire up a video camera, and we're gonna launch this exploding fireball of an Epson 7900 off the tallest cliff we can find.  End of hopeless starving artist printing career.

Now the thread gets interesting. Here's where it can go Viral, and here is where we might get Epson's attention.

I have a big cargo van; I'll load up my LLK-jammed 7900 and drive it to meet your 7900, and we'll built a giant sculpture of ruined 7900's, and set them on fire, a la Burning Man. We'll video the whole thing, and send it round the world.

Yes, this is where it gets interesting.
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na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #549 on: March 24, 2012, 06:18:30 pm »

Eric, do you why it is taking so long to get the print head back?
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #550 on: March 24, 2012, 07:43:29 pm »

From what I have been told by Vladimir, they were not tooled up to service X900 heads.  In fact in all the head cleaning service websites that I called over the past months, who advertised all sorts of head cleaning promises and history, NOT ONE was prepared to service X900 heads.  Lines always went dark when this head was mentioned.   Vladimir is not in the business, necessarily, of cleaning heads.  He sells the ultra sonic cleaning machines.  He manufactures the brackets needed to mount different heads to his machines.  But he does not clean heads.

When I called Vladimir I offered him a deal - if his machine cleared our head of it's clogs, I would buy one.  My thinking was I would then service everyone's X900 head on this forum, who couldn't clear their clogs.  Vladimir agreed, then went to work on designing and fabricating brackets to mount our X900 heads to his machine.  As I understand it all of these processes will be completed by the end of this month.

That's why it has taken this long.  Makes sense I think.

na goodman

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #551 on: March 24, 2012, 07:50:31 pm »

Yeah, I guess it makes sense. You have more patience then me. At least it's almost the end of the month.
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kevk

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #552 on: March 24, 2012, 08:46:00 pm »

Wow.  Thanks Designpartners.  I think that's quite remarkable.  

In Australia you can buy a 7900 with the Epson two year extended warranty for only $2,090.  In U.S. dollars that's only $2186.  

If you buy a 7900 in the U.S. (B&H - with current $1,000 rebate) it's $3,000 just for the printer plus $1,375 for the two year warranty for a total of $4,375.  

Why is Epson charging U.S. customers nearly $2,000 more for a 7900 printer?  That's twice the price in Australia.  Why doesn't Epson offer the same deal in America?
Nope, unfortunately the prices in Australia are actually much higher - the link you followed shows the normal price of the warranty only - i.e. the bit they are giving away for free as a 2 month promo. Indicitive pricing for the printers in Australia are: 3880 - $1,808.00; 4900 - $2,987.00; 7900 - $6450.00; 9900 - $10999.
Still sound cheaper in Australia?

Also the Aussie dollar is currently worth a few cents MORE that the US dollar so in AU the printer should cost even less!  :)

Kevin
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rmyers

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #553 on: March 24, 2012, 08:51:28 pm »

Eric,
I am rooting for you and for Vladimir's process to work.  If it does, it could offer hope to those with clogs.  

I do a lot of trouble shooting of equipment at my job, and I really think you are approaching this in a sound manner.  Have you given any thought to what it will mean if by chance the ultra sonic cleaning doesn't work?  If this is the case, are you thinking about autopsying the head to see if you can physically see a clog or somehow else try to determine if there is nothing physically blocking the head which might indicate an electrical / piezo problem?

Again, I hope this isn't the case, but something tells me you might have considered it.
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Peter Le

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #554 on: March 24, 2012, 09:05:11 pm »

   People have been complaining about clogging and wasted ink  on mostly all inkjet printers from day 1, whether it be cheap desktops to expensive WFs, and Canon and HP are no exception!
Some models appear to be more prone to clogging and other issues than others!
  Alan is very correct in his statements about building these costs into overhead. If you cannot afford the costs of ownership you shouldn't be purchasing these printers in the first place.  All equipment has a given life expectancy and gets depeciated each year untill it's useful life is over and needs to be serviced or replaced. It is some of these very factors that too many small business people never take into account that is the reason why a very large percentage of them fail to succeed in their businesse endeavor within the first year.
 
DONT blame Epson for wanting to sell product.

If you can afford to, and wish to purchase a Buggati Veyron, you'd better be prepared to mainain it and cover the costs of ownership.
Don't tell your dealer that you cannot afford a repair or maintainance when it becomes necessary and then blame it on Bugatti.
   I don't buy all this starving artist crap. I'd be willing to bet a good many of the complainers (not all), don't even have a business license and are doing this thinking they can make a few bucks on the side.  Set up a website online, and bingo your a professional photographer, taking business away from legitimate businesses and pros.

David


   

        WOW......that is  some outlook  on life........I can say this.....if I bought a Bugatti  and they gave me no schedule  of maintenance  and the engine blow up after one year......I,you and most people would be a little mad I would think.....

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Jim Coda

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #555 on: March 24, 2012, 09:55:50 pm »

Nope, unfortunately the prices in Australia are actually much higher - the link you followed shows the normal price of the warranty only - i.e. the bit they are giving away for free as a 2 month promo. Indicitive pricing for the printers in Australia are: 3880 - $1,808.00; 4900 - $2,987.00; 7900 - $6450.00; 9900 - $10999.
Still sound cheaper in Australia?

Kevin

Ah, no, not cheaper in Australia.  So the price in Australia for a 7900 is twice what we pay, not half as much.  My condolences.  Same question though in my mind.  Why such a gigantic price difference? 

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #556 on: March 25, 2012, 07:56:49 am »

   People have been complaining about clogging and wasted ink  on mostly all inkjet printers from day 1, whether it be cheap desktops to expensive WFs, and Canon and HP are no exception!

My HP Zs do not have that kind of problems, a total of 8 years of use. No clogging, no high head replacement costs, no ink waste worth mentioning. Reliably starting up after two idle weeks, reliable in two weeks running 16 hours a day, consistent output quality at different dpi resolutions. They have some issues mainly in software, ask for some maintenance, a belt should be replaced soon. Both are without an extended maintenance contract and did not need a service man in the first year either. If a formatter goes belly up it will cost me real money, has not happened so far. All together nothing worth a thread like this one and we do not see threads like this one on HP Z's or Canon iPFs, the last must have a market share comparable to the recent Epson wide format printers  (360 nozzles per channel models).


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
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enduser

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #557 on: March 25, 2012, 08:38:55 am »

Two years use with a Design Jet followed by three years intensive use of a Canon 6100 and never a hold-up with either.  Still on original heads in the Canon.  If you study forums here and elsewhere you find that topics about Epson/clogging is a big issue that hardly features for any other brand.  Some will say  that is because more Epsons are out there, but the difference is too big for that.

I do understand that brand loyalty can blind one, and big purchases have to be justified in the face of logic, so I understand those who might just wish the whole thing would go away.  I don't understand an attitude that says a small start-up is "taking business away from legitimate businesses and pros."  As a retail professional I can say that competition is your friend, not your enemy, for the obvious reasons that serious retailers understand.
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designpartners

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #558 on: March 25, 2012, 09:32:32 am »

Nope, unfortunately the prices in Australia are actually much higher - the link you followed shows the normal price of the warranty only - i.e. the bit they are giving away for free as a 2 month promo. Indicitive pricing for the printers in Australia are: 3880 - $1,808.00; 4900 - $2,987.00; 7900 - $6450.00; 9900 - $10999.
Still sound cheaper in Australia?

Also the Aussie dollar is currently worth a few cents MORE that the US dollar so in AU the printer should cost even less!  :)

Kevin

Woops... should read my searches a little better. but here is the original offer I got through myepsonprinter..


my reseller (Sheldon Photo in Dublin)  actually went out of his way to let me know about it.

James
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dgberg

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #559 on: March 25, 2012, 09:47:38 am »

So with a 9900 purchase you will pay $50 and get 2 additional years of warranty.
Just remember you no longer are eligible for the 9900 $1,000 rebate.(If still offered in your country.)
 Which makes your total cost come to $1050.00 for a 2 year extended warranty. (1 year comes with the purchase.)

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