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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1082934 times)

Jeff Magidson

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #260 on: February 07, 2012, 11:16:13 am »

Regarding preventive maintenance: Well then, maybe Epson needs to re-think their strategy. Throwing out a 3 year old, 3 hundred pound printer because Decision One charges insane fees for service and parts is somewhat criminal. BTW... how do you properly dispose of one of these things?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 12:09:52 pm by Jeff Magidson »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #261 on: February 07, 2012, 11:23:36 am »

Even if you run a high risk of destroying a $4000 printer? I'd be really surprised if a service call to change a blade would be that expensive - a few hundred is more credible; but then again, very few of us have probably had the experience to know for sure. As well, one can buy a 2 year extended service warranty from Epson for about $565 or so, providing a seamless warranty for the first three years of the machine's existence. Not even clear to me what the probability of most users ever needing to change that blade would really be. It could be extremely low. You know the story - web forums are a very skewed sample of the population because forums largely attract complaints to leverage attention and get results - it's the power of the internet, to be used or abused as the case may be. But getting back to these service calls - the cost of the extended warranty should give you a clue about the expected trouble level, in the sense that these warranties operate like an insurance system. They create a pool of cash deployed from the total pool of participants to those who need it. The more who need it the higher the insurance premium. That's why car insurance rates are linked to the claims experience and life insurance gets more expensive the older you start buying it. So when I look at a "premium" of around 500 for two years of coverage on a 3000-4000 piece of machinery, knowing that the average single service call is billed in the hundreds of dollars, it tells me that the expected frequency of recourse to the pool is projected to be very low.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jeverton

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #262 on: February 07, 2012, 11:47:30 am »

As well, one can buy a 2 year extended service warranty from Epson for about $565 or so, providing a seamless warranty for the first three years of the machine's existence.

Mark,  

Under warranty or extended warranty now makes total sense -knowing what we know now.  Thinking beyond the three year coverage... What should someone do to retain a printerís operational state?  Hire D1 for service?  I think not, but then again itís your prerogative to make your own call.  I personally want guidance from the manufacture (in writing) on what should be done and when (under warranty or not) based on usage models (light or heavy volume).  I donít think this is too much to ask for this type of an investment.  Do you?

Jeff
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #263 on: February 07, 2012, 12:33:16 pm »

Mark,  

Under warranty or extended warranty now makes total sense -knowing what we know now.  Thinking beyond the three year coverage... What should someone do to retain a printerís operational state?  Hire D1 for service?  I think not, but then again itís your prerogative to make your own call.  I personally want guidance from the manufacture (in writing) on what should be done and when (under warranty or not) based on usage models (light or heavy volume).  I donít think this is too much to ask for this type of an investment.  Do you?

Jeff


Yes I do; I think it is way beyond the pale of anything reasonable. You would need months - perhaps many months - of bespoke training just to learn to do the diagnostics on such complex, precision machinery, and then the correct tools and instruments to do anything safely and properly. You - and almost any one else getting into this - wouldn't even begin to know whether a problem that arises on your nozzle checks is due a wiper blade or umpteen other things without this training - just look at the range of speculation within this single thread. I'll bet you've spent a lot more money on your automobile than you have on your printer. Do you expect Toyota or whoever to provide you with complete written guidance on what to do if your engine (most of which are computer managed these days) konks-out on you once the warranty is expired? No you don't - you take it to a reputable, likely authorized, service outlet for professional attention. Like I said, I'm a believer in the theory of comparative advantage. But of course YMMV - we all have different ideas about how to spend precious time. :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Pete Berry

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #264 on: February 07, 2012, 01:18:38 pm »

Regarding preventive maintenance: Well then, maybe Epson needs to re-think their strategy. Throwing out a 3 year old, 3 hundred pound printer because Decision One charges insane fees for service and parts is somewhat criminal. BTW... how do you properly dispose of one of these things?

In California you can take it to an electronics recycling center. I've disposed that way of a couple of beasts that occupied the garage far too long. Whether Epson or Canon, the value a 17" printer with dead head/heads lies pretty much in the discounted remaining ink value. I've harvested cassette trays and roll spindles for handy extras in addition to the ink before the final trip...

Pete
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #265 on: February 07, 2012, 01:28:33 pm »

...Not even clear to me what the probability of most users ever needing to change that blade would really be. It could be extremely low. You know the story - web forums are a very skewed sample of the population...

This reads better in the voice of Rod Sterling:


"Dan Berg.  An artist.  A craftsman.  A gifted man possessed not only by his vision, but by the rare ability to form that vision at his fingertips.  A competent man.  A mechanical man.  An Epson journeyman large format printer for whom one 900 series printer was not enough, so he bought two.  Soon big overshadowed little so he sold his 7900 at barely a step into it's promised life.  Hardly warn?  Immaculate condition?  Dan thought so himself.  But beyond this Epson door lies another dimension.  You unlock it with the key of your imagination.  You open it with your wallet.  You enter it with your faith.  Faith that the cumbersome nozzle clogs of the past, promised by Epson to stay in the past, will actually remain there.  But this is the Twilight Zone.  Another dimension.  A place where reason defies reality.  A place where less clogs actually means more.  A place where cleaning can create filth.  A place where maintenance can form harm" - if your wiper cleaner assembly is compromised....

Below is the wiper cleaner assembly on Dan's Epson 7900, after just 900 prints (unfortunately AFTER the tar and splooge was cleaned from it).  Note the tear in it, which obviously kept it from sitting flush on the face of the head during cleanings.  I post this because maybe "the probability of most users ever needing to change that blade" is actually not extremely low at all.  Seems like it took a lot of cleanings for Dan to get 900 prints out of his Epson 7900 - and Dan is a pro:







Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #266 on: February 07, 2012, 01:44:02 pm »

This is very poetic and I almost split a gut laughing, but I know, Eric, you are trying to deliver a serious message, so forgive me. But unfortunate as it is, your wiper blade finding seems to me unlikely to reflect a representative sample of the total number of these machines operating in performance environments around the world; otherwise it would not have endured on the market for the past 3 + years it has been available. No production run of anything most consumers use is 100% fail-safe - that we can take for granted; the important issue is whether the failure rate is above the manufacturer's norm or high enough to impair the market for the product, and on that we don't have the data.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:07:33 pm by Mark D Segal »
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ken Doo

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #267 on: February 07, 2012, 01:48:17 pm »

This reads better in the voice of Rod Sterling:


"Dan Berg.  An artist.  A craftsman.  A gifted man possessed not only by his vision, but by the rare ability to form that vision at his fingertips.  A competent man.  A mechanical man.  An Epson journeyman large format printer for whom one 900 series printer was not enough, so he bought two.  Soon big overshadowed little so he sold his 7900 at barely a step into it's promised life.  Hardly warn?  Immaculate condition?  Dan thought so himself.  But beyond this Epson door lies another dimension.  You unlock it with the key of your imagination.  You open it with your wallet.  You enter it with your faith.  Faith that the cumbersome nozzle clogs of the past, promised by Epson to stay in the past, will actually remain there.  But this is the Twilight Zone.  Another dimension.  A place where reason defies reality.  A place where less clogs actually means more.  A place where cleaning can create filth.  A place where maintenance can form harm" - if your wiper cleaner assembly is compromised....


Well, I see you've been working on your intro to your maintenance video.....    ;D

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #268 on: February 07, 2012, 01:52:27 pm »

But will he remain as calm and collected as Rod Sterling? :-)

Just not to put too fine a point on it - crap happens to all of us at one time or another. Recently, Michael Reichmann, positively reviewed the Sigma 8~16mm lens for the Sony NEX system. Based on the sample he had I have no doubt his review was correct. I went onto the B&H website and read a slew of positive reviews of this lens. So I ordered one. It came to me, I tried it, and I found that beyond the center of the image, it performed somewhat better than I would expect from a Coke bottle. So I sent it back to B&H. (B&H are wonderful that way; their order fulfillment and product return processes are efficient to an extent unbeatable anywhere in the world.) So do I think the Sigma lens is junk - no - I just got one that probably wasn't aligned quite correctly; it can happen with a mass-produced wide-angle zoom lens and I've seen it before. So much to say, we need to take all this kind of stuff in perspective.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #269 on: February 07, 2012, 02:14:06 pm »

Good of you to receive that so well Mark. 

again I say what drives me to post is to help others.  From what I have read, which is likely as you say "skewed", I get the impression that I am not the only 7900 user who has experienced cleanings which seem to add clogs rather than remove them.  I do not know yet exactly why this happens.  I can only draw conclusions from what I read, and from what I hold in my own two hands.  Soon enough we will all have a uniquely fascinating view, and therefore understanding, of what exactly goes on during a cleaning cycle on an Epson 7900 printer - from the inside out. 

Also soon enough we will all have three months of Epson service training jammed into three minutes - which will hopefully set you especially at ease as to how undangerous it is (yes I just made that word up) to change your own wiper cleaner assembly.  Until then I hope you can assemble any traces of faith you have left in what you read on the internet - there is almost a comedic level of "risk of destroying a $4000 printer" in changing your own wiper cleaner assembly.

TSJ1927

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #270 on: February 07, 2012, 02:21:03 pm »

I've often thought that many of these returned products are simply returned to the next buyer and so on and so on and so on.......... until someone finds it "acceptable'
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dgberg

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #271 on: February 07, 2012, 02:46:24 pm »

Eric,

Cannot tell you how many hours I watched the Twilight Zone trying to imitate that crushed velvet airline voice.

Randy Carone

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #272 on: February 07, 2012, 02:50:32 pm »

Dan,

You may have to smoke his brand to match the voice. But - don't do it. :)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #273 on: February 07, 2012, 02:53:50 pm »

Eric,

Cannot tell you how many hours I watched the Twilight Zone trying to imitate that crushed velvet airline voice.
Dan, the answer to his voice is seen in his left hand!  (EDIT added - Randy beat me to it)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #274 on: February 07, 2012, 03:52:07 pm »

Good of you to receive that so well Mark. 

again I say what drives me to post is to help others.  From what I have read, which is likely as you say "skewed", I get the impression that I am not the only 7900 user who has experienced cleanings which seem to add clogs rather than remove them.  I do not know yet exactly why this happens.  I can only draw conclusions from what I read, and from what I hold in my own two hands.  Soon enough we will all have a uniquely fascinating view, and therefore understanding, of what exactly goes on during a cleaning cycle on an Epson 7900 printer - from the inside out. 

Also soon enough we will all have three months of Epson service training jammed into three minutes - which will hopefully set you especially at ease as to how undangerous it is (yes I just made that word up) to change your own wiper cleaner assembly.  Until then I hope you can assemble any traces of faith you have left in what you read on the internet - there is almost a comedic level of "risk of destroying a $4000 printer" in changing your own wiper cleaner assembly.

I shall await my three-minute wiper-blade training with keen anticipation Eric!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #275 on: February 07, 2012, 04:27:12 pm »

We are not talking about DYI necessarily.
My Toyota Truck User Manual gives me a very definate maintenance schedule to provide for keeping it in as best running condition as possible. If I don't adhere to the reccomended sevice intervals and inspections (too numerous to mention ),I have no one to blame but myself if it conks out.
It appears that at least the the wiper assembly in the 7900  has been designed so that it can be changed easily("even a cave man-woman can do it") ,but absolutely no mention that it should even be examined for wear and tear!!!
The faqs on the 7800 tell users to inspect and clean the wiper in that machine!!!!

David

My Epson 4900 printer comes with a manual that has a whole chapter on user-performed maintenance. Everything they want to let users do is explained there. What isn't explained there is what they don't want users to do, and that includes inspecting and changing wiper blades. The printer is also programmed for auto-maintenance (nozzle checks and cleaning). Different models have different designs and what is recommended to users for one may not be for the others. Doesn't mean to say I'm unwilling to be demystified, but..............well, let's see what we'll see. Time to give it a rest for now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Jim Coda

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #276 on: February 07, 2012, 04:34:18 pm »

Even if you run a high risk of destroying a $4000 printer? I'd be really surprised if a service call to change a blade would be that expensive - a few hundred is more credible; but then again, very few of us have probably had the experience to know for sure. As well, one can buy a 2 year extended service warranty from Epson for about $565 or so, providing a seamless warranty for the first three years of the machine's existence. 

The 2-year extended warranty for the 7900 and 9900 is $1,375.00.   

Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #277 on: February 07, 2012, 04:51:49 pm »

The 2-year extended warranty for the 7900 and 9900 is $1,375.00.   

OK, I was quoting for the 4900.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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enduser

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #278 on: February 07, 2012, 07:38:05 pm »

I think there are a lot of users of this sort of machine who have a great deal of "hands-on" experience with electro-mechanical machinery.  Many build computers from the ground up and have had some professional exposure to handling the innards of complex equipment in their lives.  I put myself in this category and when my Canon DSLR refused to fire I opened it up, cleaned gunk from behind the shutter blind  and got it working perfectly again.  So for me threads like this are invaluable.

On the other hand, my wife calls the serviceman if the TV remote need a new battery.   This thread has been very useful and I believe that the apparent possibility of clogs being the fault of electronics and not blockages that has been revealed here is possibly a real breakthrough.   Could it be that these printers were brought to market before they were really ready?

Keep digging guys. 
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iladi

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #279 on: February 08, 2012, 05:20:13 am »

Hi,

sorry i jump in this thread with my first post here, but i folow this part of the forum for a while and this thread in particular and i might have a few words to say that helps.

first of all i'm not a photographer, but i print for living. one of my printres is a 9700, not so different as your 9900 photoprinter. for some reasons i use dye inks in this printer, not pigment inks. dye inks are much more thiner than pigments so the clogs are not being produced by pigments accumulating in dampers or head. most of my clogs do occur especialy in the midle of the prints. not if the printer is idle, but in the midle of a very large print with a lot of ink used. after 4 prints of 180g coated paper 1,5 meters by 90 cm i ususly get some clogs.
but i also get clogs on my mutoh draftstation printer both with dyes and with pigments. but not as much as epson 9700.
that is not all, i also have a roland solvent printer. guess what, that clogs to.
all the above printers have various epson heads. for me it is half clear: epson heads do clog by design. more nozzels, more clogs.
but roland user manual describes very well how to take care of your printer. ok, it is solvent , i have to take care of it one, twice a week, but i was very confused that in mutoh and epson manuals thay do not specify any type of deep cleaning. more, for roland i was sugested to replace the whiper ebery 6 months (but again there are different inks). anyway, when i clean the roland i also clean the waterbased printers the way roland told me to clean: clean the whiper, clean carefuly arownd the head, clean the capping station. and cleaning the caping station seems to help the most. there may be debris, hair whatever that prevent the proper sealing of the head and conducts to dry ink and improper cleanings.
i think this was a good approach because i have no missing nozzels and i realy print alot. i have over 5000 pages printed with epson, printed with a RIP, some pages may be over 10 meters long.

i don't know i my sory tells clearly what i wanted to tell: all epson heads clogs. more or less. no matter what ink they carry. i don't think it is heat related, since roland prints even 10 hours without a problem but epson may clog even after 6 sqmeters. a proper maintenance must be done. why it is not specified in the manual it is a mistery to me.

again, sorry for the long story and for my bad english.

Adrian
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:23:52 am by iladi »
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