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Author Topic: Epson 7900 from the inside - out  (Read 1044353 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #120 on: February 01, 2012, 02:46:46 pm »

Hi Alan - not sure the analogy works here. I'm referring to one specific and key component in a printer. A car has a huge number of assemblies and parts that are and should be third-party serviceable. Even with the cars as you correctly point out how they are made these days, for certain components the third-party folks have no choice but to revert to the manufacturer for certain replacement assemblies. In the specific case of the Epson printhead - let's face it - this is the core of their IP and it's quite reasonable to expect they'd be leery of losing control over it for any number of sensible reasons. Wiper blades is perhaps another story.
Any potential competitor can buy an Epson printer and take it apart to see what makes it tick and see if it can be reverse engineered.  The thing that controls the IP in this case are the patents and trade secrets.  Patents would apply to the print head and the trade secrets to the inks (though an enterprising chemist could potentially figure out the inks and the fact that their are third part inksets for Epsons implies that someone has done exactly this).  I don't see this as a "control" issue since with most all consumer goods, the manufacturer only covers repairs under the warranty period.  My understanding of the thread so far is that getting the service manual from Epson is not possible as is getting the replacement print head.  I suspect that Epson are trying to control who is "licensed" to repair these printers and this is what I'm objecting to particularly since it appears that customers have had various degrees of satisfaction.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #121 on: February 01, 2012, 03:21:35 pm »

Any potential competitor can buy an Epson printer and take it apart to see what makes it tick and see if it can be reverse engineered.  The thing that controls the IP in this case are the patents and trade secrets.  Patents would apply to the print head and the trade secrets to the inks (though an enterprising chemist could potentially figure out the inks and the fact that their are third part inksets for Epsons implies that someone has done exactly this).  I don't see this as a "control" issue since with most all consumer goods, the manufacturer only covers repairs under the warranty period.  My understanding of the thread so far is that getting the service manual from Epson is not possible as is getting the replacement print head.  I suspect that Epson are trying to control who is "licensed" to repair these printers and this is what I'm objecting to particularly since it appears that customers have had various degrees of satisfaction.



Alan,

Yes, any potential competitor can buy each others' machines and dissect them, and I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that ALL of them do exactly that. So?

Yes, Patents and trade secrets control IP. BUT, there are most likely patents covering not only the printhead per se but every patentable component of the printhead. And likewise for the inkset. There are three registered patents on each ink for my 4900, so it goes beyond trade secrets. Third-party manufacturers may have analyzed the content of Epson inks, but they may have gone about it differently too. We don't know that. Interestingly, at least as far as I know, there are no pending lawsuits against thirty party ink manufacturers, so presumably no clear evidence of patent infringement.

Now about patents and control: my understanding is that patents are meant to control the dissemination of technology for the benefit of the patent-holder for the duration of the patent. Otherwise what else are they for? If part of that control means not releasing components to third-parties, it would seem they have that right, otherwise they would face legal challenges on grounds of restrictive trade practices; I wonder if anyone has tried suing for this. Whether they SHOULD operate this way is of course another matter.

Many companies control who is allowed to service their stuff by having authorized service agents. That doesn't prevent others from trying to service whatever - until they need parts they can't get, and then we are back to the item just above. I would like to have the comfort of knowing that whoever services my Epson printer has been trained by Epson on that model. My concern actually is the apparent shortage of trained service personnel, at least here in Canada.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #122 on: February 01, 2012, 03:43:49 pm »

Alan,

Yes, any potential competitor can buy each others' machines and dissect them, and I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that ALL of them do exactly that. So?

Yes, Patents and trade secrets control IP. BUT, there are most likely patents covering not only the printhead per se but every patentable component of the printhead. And likewise for the inkset. There are three registered patents on each ink for my 4900, so it goes beyond trade secrets. Third-party manufacturers may have analyzed the content of Epson inks, but they may have gone about it differently too. We don't know that. Interestingly, at least as far as I know, there are no pending lawsuits against thirty party ink manufacturers, so presumably no clear evidence of patent infringement.

Now about patents and control: my understanding is that patents are meant to control the dissemination of technology for the benefit of the patent-holder for the duration of the patent. Otherwise what else are they for? If part of that control means not releasing components to third-parties, it would seem they have that right, otherwise they would face legal challenges on grounds of restrictive trade practices; I wonder if anyone has tried suing for this. Whether they SHOULD operate this way is of course another matter.

Many companies control who is allowed to service their stuff by having authorized service agents. That doesn't prevent others from trying to service whatever - until they need parts they can't get, and then we are back to the item just above. I would like to have the comfort of knowing that whoever services my Epson printer has been trained by Epson on that model. My concern actually is the apparent shortage of trained service personnel, at least here in Canada.
I just looked at the 3880 cartridges and Epson list four patents.  Now some of these patents can actually be on the cartridge itself and how it is designed as well as the ink formulation.  Formulation patents are fairly weak since they can be engineered around pretty easily by changing components.  Actually, the original function of patents was/is to encourage innovation by disclosing inventions rather than keeping them secret.  In return the inventor gets a period of exclusivity where the invention cannot be infringed upon.

I don't think that non-release of parts except to "certified" repair facilities is a restrictive trade practice.  Of course there is always the question about whether the repair personnel are competent (which appears to be questionable given what we have read in recent days).  You hit the correct nail on the head about whether Epson "should' operate in this manner.  I suspect part of the problem that is being experienced is that folks are purchasing large format printers that are really designed to be production machines and used frequently and that this is not necessarily the case.  I continue to be amazed at my 3880 (and I think you had a similar experience with the 3800) at how trouble free it is.  Perhaps the larger machines require longer ink lines and other stuff that contributes to problematic behavior if not in a commercial setting.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #123 on: February 01, 2012, 03:52:02 pm »

OK, we're talking two sides of the same coin on patents. They encourage invention by giving the inventors are period of legal respite from competition. You would know all about that in terms of the brand-name versus generic drugs industry. :-) Right?

Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head re the primary issue with these x900 machines. They are intended to be production machines, and used regularly they will experience far fewer ink flow issues than otherwise. I've seen it in my own small way. If I use my 4900 every other day, it's fine; leave it alone for a week or more and it needs to be cleaned. The 3800/3880 is indeed a different animal in this respect. I could leave my 3800 alone for weeks, turn it on, print the nozzle check and it was fine. I seldom experienced any issues with that printer. So that of course raises the question of why - what's the difference? As you point out, major design differences. For one thing, longer ink lines. Heads are different, ink formulation is different. Hard to know exactly, but this question of *why the difference* has been on my mind and it would be really interesting to know the answer.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #124 on: February 01, 2012, 04:01:55 pm »

OK, we're talking two sides of the same coin on patents. They encourage invention by giving the inventors are period of legal respite from competition. You would know all about that in terms of the brand-name versus generic drugs industry. :-) Right?
It's even worse.  Brand name companies come up with a new formulation (usually an extended release form of the drug, reducing the number of pills that need to be taken) and get patients to switch over.  It's not uncommon for the original formulation to be off patent with the newer ones still on patent (and of course the company has now convinced patients that the new formulation is more convenient, etc.)

Quote
Yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head re the primary issue with these x900 machines. They are intended to be production machines, and used regularly they will experience far fewer ink flow issues than otherwise. I've seen it in my own small way. If I use my 4900 every other day, it's fine; leave it alone for a week or more and it needs to be cleaned. The 3800/3880 is indeed a different animal in this respect. I could leave my 3800 alone for weeks, turn it on, print the nozzle check and it was fine. I seldom experienced any issues with that printer. So that of course raises the question of why - what's the difference? As you point out, major design differences. For one thing, longer ink lines. Heads are different, ink formulation is different. Hard to know exactly, but this question of *why the difference* has been on my mind and it would be really interesting to know the answer.
Yes, I've had my 3880 off for up to two months, turn it on and a perfect nozzle check.  I would be surprised if the ink formulation were different but that's just a guess.  I think that there are some parts of the printer that require exacting tolerance and that a slight deviation can lead to issues (capping station being one of them).  I agree that it would be interesting to understand this and I'm sure Epson are keen to as well as money they have to spend on warranty support impacts their bottom line and ultimately higher prices for consumers as this ultimately has to be factored into their balance sheet.

Whenever my 3880 dies, I'll probably take it apart to see what makes it tick (but I don't anticipate that happening anytime soon).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #125 on: February 01, 2012, 04:15:28 pm »

Alan, based on the advertising (FWIW), the 3880 uses K3+Vivid Magenta, while the x900 series are using "HDR" inks, whatever that means. We'll never know whether the difference is in name only (i.e. marketing hype) or truly a different ink formulation, or a combination thereof. I got some insight from a family member in another service-related branch of industry that every customer support call costs these companies a lot of money (they do cost-out the support infrastructure, divide it by the number of calls and track how much they could reduce costs as a function of reducing the need for calls) - and that's even before they need to spend yet more money on remediation; so yes, clearly, the less trouble to which they need to respond the better for them, and there's no doubt they monitor for this very closely. If our anecdotal evidence is correct that the 3800/3880 series is less prone to ink laydown issues than the x900s, we can trust that they know all about that in depth, and probably knew it from the time the machines were designed; but they are, as you said, aimed at different usage segments so it probably wasn't seen as anything to fret about. But that's speculation.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Farmer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #126 on: February 01, 2012, 05:46:13 pm »

I would suggest that if you think the wiper blade should be a user replacable component (and I can't disagree - if there's no pressing technical reason then it could be a very useful innovation) then you need to feedback to Epson.

Remember, most users (I'm talking 99% here, literally) are not capable of doing anything even remotely technical with their printers.  Most printers are not used by photographers - they're used by graphic designers or press operators or architects - then some photographers or print shop operators.  So the number of technically capable people is very small.

So what needs to be asked for is an end user level designed replacement process.  Judging by what people have said here, I suspect most would be fine even if it cost a few more dollars (maybe $25- instead of $16-?) to make a part that was specifically designed for end user replacement.  Anyway, feed it back to Epson.
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Phil Brown

gwhitf

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #127 on: February 01, 2012, 06:53:06 pm »

It reminds me of how Apple changed where the RAM was located in the MacBook Pros. Early on, the RAM was buried inside the machine. I guess they realized how many people wanted to upgrade the RAM, so later, they changed it where it was on the topmost layer -- very easy for most any user to install it.

I agree that this 7900 is meant to be run. I had gone on vacation for a week; when I came home, that's when the problem started with the LLK. I'm not Catholic, but now I feel guilty for going on vacation. More therapy: "Every time I have fun, I come home to problems".
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 06:54:57 pm by gwhitf »
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Peter Le

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #128 on: February 01, 2012, 08:32:46 pm »

Alan, based on the advertising (FWIW), the 3880 uses K3+Vivid Magenta, while the x900 series are using "HDR" inks, whatever that means. We'll never know whether the difference is in name only (i.e. marketing hype) or truly a different ink formulation, or a combination thereof. I got some insight from a family member in another service-related branch of industry that every customer support call costs these companies a lot of money (they do cost-out the support infrastructure, divide it by the number of calls and track how much they could reduce costs as a function of reducing the need for calls) - and that's even before they need to spend yet more money on remediation; so yes, clearly, the less trouble to which they need to respond the better for them, and there's no doubt they monitor for this very closely. If our anecdotal evidence is correct that the 3800/3880 series is less prone to ink laydown issues than the x900s, we can trust that they know all about that in depth, and probably knew it from the time the machines were designed; but they are, as you said, aimed at different usage segments so it probably wasn't seen as anything to fret about. But that's speculation.
     
      Hi Mark..........HDR x900 ink is the same as K3+vivid magenta......just has green and orange added. Epson has informed me about this.......a way to verify this is the Epson 7890 uses K3+vivid magenta......the ink carts are interchangeableable between the 7890 and the 7900.
 Peter
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dgberg

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Re: Wiper
« Reply #129 on: February 01, 2012, 08:57:22 pm »

Phil,
There is no problem obtaining the part,(from an Epson authorized dealer) and it is a relatively easy snap out -snap in proccedure to replace it the old way , which was to use a command in service mode and reset the usage counter with a bundled utility (Serveprog exe that used to either  be in the LFP remote panel  or accessed through the service menu in the printer menu itself.
Epson has removed this utility as of over a year ago,  and it is now only accessable to serice techs through Epsons Insider site.
According to the manual, the right cover needs to removed to have access and turn the gear that activates the wiper assembly and brings it forward to change it. There used to be a command in the old service  menu that would do this without having to remove the cover, but I believe Epson has removed that command also. I haven't tried to do it through the service menu  yet because I cannot afford to have my machine down this week untill I finish a large print run I just don't want to risk ant screw up this week. I have in fact ordered 2 wipers from Compas Micro, to have on hand though once we get this issue sorted out.


FROM THE 7900/9900   Field Repair Guide 10/6/10  
Servprog.exe Printer Component, Software Item, LCD Display, Printer Button Page 466.
Servprog.exe
Note: Servprog.exe is no longer an ASI enabled service utility. It is available for download on Epson
Insider.
Note: Servprog.exe is the utility that enables counter resets, and some electronic alignments for the
7900 and 9900.
Note: Servprog.exe will work when the Printer is in Ready mode, or in Self Testing mode.
Note: Self Testing mode will allow the Servprog.exe to function with the Printer, when the Printer is in
an error condition.
1. Ensure that the 7900 or 9900 Printer Driver is installed on the system that will be running the
Servprog.exe.
1.1 Verify that the Printer Driver can read the Printerís ink quantities.
2. Ensure that the Servprog files listed below are all in the same folder.
 
The problem arises  if and when the wipers  counter life exceeds the useful wiper life because the age is cumulative from the original wiper life count, if it cannot be reset when doing a self install of a new wiper, Even though Epson will gladly sell you one through their distributer) an error code will essentially shut the machine down!  

So now the million dollar question.
What is the wipers service life?

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Wiper
« Reply #130 on: February 01, 2012, 09:10:00 pm »


The problem arises  if and when the wipers  counter life exceeds the useful wiper life.....

An error code will essentially shut the machine down! 

David, we are only two days away from leaving the trenches and once again attacking this hopefully humbled giant of an Epson 7900.  On our radar we now have a few key concerns, one of which you have inspired here.  I would like to clarify:  Is this terminal error code theory based on fact or fear?

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2012, 09:34:54 pm »

I mean no disrespect.  Just wondered if you had come across something definite, or if this was based on a (definitely knowledgeable) hunch.  Either way it's on our radar, just like to know how far up the "hurdles to get over" priority list we should put it.

Farmer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #132 on: February 01, 2012, 09:59:58 pm »

I know how it's done from a service perspective.  I'm suggesting that people feedback to Epson to request to be able to do it without needing to access service utilities and menus.

Epson has never made freely available the service adjustment software (it was most definitely not in the LFP Remote Panel software) - any copies available were obtained and distributed illegally, just as the service manuals are (including the field service manuals).

Again, feedback to Epson that you'd like to be able to replace the wiper blade as an end user consumable - otherwise, what chance do you really think there is for them to decide to do it? :-)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #133 on: February 01, 2012, 10:28:13 pm »

Reading Phil's post, I don't see any sensitivity - just a helpful suggestion about how to get messages across to Epson, and a statement of fact that the materials are copyrighted, meaning it is not legal to make them available by any means without the permission of the copyright owner. I think that's pretty standard stuff. I don't own a 7900 - I own a 4900, but I clicked that link anyhow and it immediately downloaded the manual. I moused through it and nothing is mentioned about copyright. Perhaps the cover and back pages were not reproduced, or perhaps Epson did not draft this manual. I don't know who else could, but it is"orphaned" as presented from that link, so it would seem its status is unclear. Even if I were interested, I don't think I could seriously use that manual without having had formal, hands on training - but that's just me.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Farmer

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #134 on: February 01, 2012, 11:03:34 pm »

"(it was most definitely not in the LFP Remote Panel software)"
Phil,
as I said, Epson removed it from wherever it did reside at one time.I'm not sure where it was maybe the driver itsef in the 'utility' tab


AIS....    http://www.americaninkjetsystems.com/index.html

distributes the Field service manual freely on their site along with others and they are not in China.
 I am quite sure they would not risk legal problems publishing links to the manual.A big Co like Seiko /Epson could shut them down if they desired
to and I'm sure they are very aware of that.
You seem to be very sensative on the matter of IP have you been burned yourself in the past?
I think Epson should be asked why they do not allow users to perform a simple wiper change, just like the cutter blade!

The problem may be that if it is not done exactly as it should you can really screw up the head, and they may feel the risk is too great for the average user to tak that chance?

David - I'm not sensitive about it, and I've posted often enough (well, so I thought) that my comments are *not* directed at people who Google for info and come across this material and have a look at it.  They're not to know it's restricted material because it's not presented as such.

As to why Epson does not pursue this?  I don't know.  It's not my place to say or guess.  I make the point, though, because this is a photography forum and photographers rely on protection of IP.  It tweaks my sense of irony.  I've certainly never been burned (in either direction).

Take a look at the manual for the 3800, for example, where it clearly states on the first or second page, "Copyright © 2006 SEIKO EPSON CORPORATION."

Now, regarding the service software, let me assure you that it was never, ever, distributed publically for general use in any form what so ever, regardless of what that website might say or suggest.  It never resided anywhere that the public were allowed to access it.  Anyone distributing it is doing so illegally.  Should photographers be supporting this, or should they be contacting the vendor and asking for supprot (for example, by providing access to change a wiper blade by an end user)?  I think the answer is pretty obvious :-)
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Phil Brown

Eric Gulbransen

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #135 on: February 02, 2012, 01:27:44 am »

Just in case anyone is curious, there is a huge difference between changing your pump and cap assembly compared to changing your wiper cleaner assembly.

The pump and cap assy, yes, if you're not comfortable with thirty seven scrambled parts on your table top - don't attempt it.

The wiper cleaner assembly a seven year old could change.  And it's critical to.  Seems almost ill willed to keep you from it (IF in fact they do.  We don't know yet.  I will confirm over the weekend).

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #136 on: February 02, 2012, 03:11:01 am »

Sorry, but I think this is not true (I was close to call this argument BS). Graphic designers, architects, press operators are usually very capable. I know a lot of them in Europe at least. Very often they are much more capable than photographers when it comes to output of images on paper.

I think they expect that equipment like a printer simply works. In a production environment they don't have the time to deal with things like this.

Of course they're very capable - they're very capable graphic designers, architects, press operators and so on.  No doubt they are also very capable in other areas as well.  But it's very unlikely that they're technical minded in terms of pulling a printer apart and doing mechanical or electrical or electronic work on them.  Most of these are office environments and the very same people who call someone to fix the office copier (far less complex machine), small desktop inkjet, monitor, computer, etc.  There's nothing wrong with that, but often times there are posts here that seem to suggest that just about everyone could (or would want to) pull their own printer apart.

It's again the lens of the internet forums.  People who are technically minded are already more likely to post and participate on forums.
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Phil Brown

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #137 on: February 02, 2012, 07:00:39 am »

Eric, thanks for your time and effort in documenting your 'journey' with your 7900. It has motivated me to do some (probably long overdue) maintenance on my 7800.

I've done a little online digging about the Service Program which has been mentioned earlier in this thread. It seems to be called "Adjustment Program" for the x800 series and "Service Program" for the x900 series. Among other things, it is used to reset the service counters for maintenance parts, perform various serviceman type adjustments, etc.

The reason for my post is that I believe you will need that program after you reinstall the head. In the 7800 service manual (and I see no reason why the 7900 would be different) at the beginning of the Adjustment section there is a table which specifies the various adjustments required after particular parts are replaced. According to this, a Head Slant Adjustment is required even if the original head is reinstalled. You need the Adjustment/Service Program to do that adjustment. The adjustment itself is described further on in the Service Manual.

A Google search will turn up at least one site where these Adjustment/Service Programs are for sale. No free sources that I could find. Perhaps one of your parts sources can provide it, I don't know. But I think you will need it.

I hope that your machine will soon be turning out some stunning prints.

Regards

Frank
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gwhitf

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #138 on: February 02, 2012, 09:34:05 am »

Maybe the 7991 will either have a way for the user to manually drop some cleaning fluid on the printhead, to clear a clog, or better yet, have some internal way for the printer to inject some cleaning fluid when it auto-detects a clog.

When I entered my Zip Code into the Epson site, to find service, the closest service site was five hours away. I was envisioning me with my 7900 bungied-corded to the roof of my BMW Mini, going down the freeway for five hours. Not pretty.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson 7900 from the inside - out
« Reply #139 on: February 02, 2012, 09:36:25 am »

For all of you living in the Toronto area or who would want service from an Epson authorized facility in this area, it may be helpful for you to know that (Epson Canada has just informed me) a firm called Unisource Canada is the authorized outlet. This is not not well-known because it isn't advertised and the Unisource website is very ambiguous on the service side. Back in the days of the Epson 4000, the original service supplier Epson referred us to here was Treck-Hall, which subsequently became Mondrian-Hall, and since been merged into Unisource Canada. So there would appear to be continuity.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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