Canvas: Breathing Color Lyve vs Lexjet Select Sunset Matte

[Justan]

I've been working with Lexjet Select Sunset Matte canvas and have found there are problems using this when the canvas is mounted with Breathing Color’s Easy Wrap stretcher bars. The canvas evidently stretches a bit and results in dimples and sags.

Is it odd that a coated canvas would stretch?

Prior to stretching, the canvas was coated with Glamour II and left for between 3 days and a week to fully cure.

I spoke with the folks at Breathing Color as well as sending fotos, and they attribute the problem to the canvas stretching after it’s been mounted. They claim that the problem wouldn’t happen if I was using their Lyve brand of canvas.

The Breathing Color canvas is a little more than 30% higher cost than the Lexjet brand.
 
Has anyone used both of these types of canvas along with Glamour II and on gallery wrap mount?

Comments appreciated…

[bill t.]

Have gallery wrapped a few Lexjet SSMC/GlamourII canvases with good results, but on the 2" to 3" wide bars I normally use for large pieces.  Yes, coated canvas stretches just about as easily as uncoated.

I am a skeptic about those thin little Easy bars.  Have never used them but I would expect them to buckle inwards in places where they are not stiffened by a cross brace for even short spans.  Warped stretcher bars typically causes localized ripples and such to develop.  That's why I use wide bars, and even then with lots of cross bracing.  Also I am highly dubious about using adhesive to hold tension in stretched canvas, and by design the canvas does get stretched when those sides are folded upwards.  Those are maybe OK for the occasional really small canvas, that that's it.

I also like to stretch pretty soon after coating while canvas and coatings are still bright-eyed, bushy-tailed, and above all else Supple.  That's as little as 6 hours after coating here in high altitude New Mexico.
 

[Ken]

I could be wrong about this, but I don't see how the coating relates to whether the canvas will sag.

[Light Seeker]

I use Lyve canvas and I've had it loosen up in different environments / climates. I've assumed this is common for canvas in general.

Terry.

[Justan]

Thanks for the reply!

>Have gallery wrapped a few Lexjet SSMC/GlamourII canvases with good results, but on the 2" to 3" wide bars I normally use for large pieces. 

The bars that Breathing Color sells are 1.75”  on the side and not flexible to reasonable force.

> Yes, coated canvas stretches just about as easily as uncoated.

Thanks. I thought the G2 might reduce that tendency.


> …Easy bars.  Have never used them but I would expect them to buckle inwards in places where they are not stiffened by a cross brace for even short spans.  Warped stretcher bars typically causes localized ripples and such to develop.  That's why I use wide bars, and even then with lots of cross bracing. 

These are 1.75” softwood and fairly well engineered. They appear inflexible without notable force. The wraps are corner braced plus cross braced about every 1.5’. I don’t know if that makes them suitable for this task as it’s all I've tried. It appears to be fairly strong and resistant to buckling and/or twisting.

> Also I am highly dubious about using adhesive to hold tension in stretched canvas, and by design the canvas does get stretched when those sides are folded upwards.  Those are maybe OK for the occasional really small canvas, that that's it.

These use a combination of 2 adhesives plus staples. The staples won’t find their effectiveness until the adhesives loose their grip. Here’s their promo video, which I followed very closely.
http://www.breathingcolor.com/blog/a-new-twist-with-the-easywrappe-system/

But I think how the canvas is held in place is the key. Their plan uses an atg like adhesive on what becomes the outside part of the wrap, and then in the corner of face they use what looks like Elmer’s glue. Staples are optional and of course go on the back.

I think the adhesives are the key to the issue.

[bill t.]

OK, I'm a curmudgeon.  And call me old-fashioned.  I just like the secure feeling I get slamming man-sized staples into the backs of humongously rigid and obsessively cross-braced 1.5" deep by 3" wide Basswood bars with the canvas tensioned to a note most sopranos can't reach.  Don't want no stinkin' flimsy canvases comin' back for redos, nossir.

[Justan]

I could be wrong about this, but I don't see how the coating relates to whether the canvas will sag.

The thought is that G2 it might stiffen the canvas if over time. G2 is pretty subtle, so probably doesn't do much.

[Justan]

I use Lyve canvas and I've had it loosen up in different environments / climates. I've assumed this is common for canvas in general.

Terry.

Thanks!

Environment may play a role in this issue. When talking to the mfgr they say humidity around them is about 30%. Where I do my work, ambient humidity is closer to 70%

[Justan]

OK, I'm a curmudgeon.  And call me old-fashioned.  I just like the secure feeling I get slamming man-sized staples into the backs of humongously rigid and obsessively cross-braced 1.5" deep by 3" wide Basswood bars with the canvas tensioned to a note most sopranos can't reach.  Don't want no stinkin' flimsy canvases comin' back for redos, nossir.

Very valid points! The foundation is all important and it’s effect shows over time.

What do you use as a stretcher?

[Justan]

I've done a bit of a post mortem on one of the failed gallery wraps and found that the problem is due to the way the glue spreads over the surface of the canvas while drying.

I spoke with the vendor (Breathing Color) about this. Evidently after one makes the wrap, one should store the newly made wrap with the printed surface facing upward. Evidently this permits any glue to settle away from the canvas. Because i didn’t do this, the glue pooled on the surface of the canvas and when it dried there that created dimpling on the canvas surface.

Live and learn but am I the only one who thinks that the vendor has an obligation to demonstrate how their product should be assembled?

[mstevensphoto]

in fairness, BC does demonstrate the product, so does Hannemule and so does the company that makes them both - IG Wrappe - they've all got video tutorials on their sites and on youtube.

I stretch a bunch of lyve+ease wrappe in sizes from 12x18 to 30x40 and have good luck. the one thing I notice that can cause a sag is if I allow the bars to move at all. sometimes they settle out of the little template jig so that they're not putting so much of a stretch on when you fold everything up. I also staple, mostly for presentation but I imagine it helps maintain tightness. I can't imagine putting enough glue on for it to pool - a thin bead will suit you just fine. I love love love the corners with this method. I can never get a hospital corner to look so nice as I can with those bars.

if you've got minor sags try spraying the back with warm water and letting it dry.

[Ken]

One of Breathing Color's recent videos demonstrates stapling with their EasyWrappe Pro stretcher frames (http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/196/). I think the glue does the work, but if somewhere down the line the glue lets go, the staples will still be in place.

In my experience, the Hahnemühle/BreathingColor "Pro" width bars have been cut and notched more accurately and cleanly than the standard bars, and are easier to fit into and release from the corner templates. Also I have found that nudging either size bars a 16th of an inch or so toward the center of the print, before you press them down hard against the back of the canvas, makes a tighter stretch. Another thing I've learned is to retain a piece of the tan silicone-coated paper that you remove from the tape, and use that to prevent your fingers from sticking to the tape when you press the bars into the corner templates.

It takes practice to get the corners "military bed-sheet neat", but I like it much better than the bunched-up "traditional" stretcher frame folded corners.

[Justan]

in fairness, BC does demonstrate the product, so does Hannemule and so does the company that makes them both - IG Wrappe - they've all got video tutorials on their sites and on youtube.

I stretch a bunch of lyve+ease wrappe in sizes from 12x18 to 30x40 and have good luck. the one thing I notice that can cause a sag is if I allow the bars to move at all. sometimes they settle out of the little template jig so that they're not putting so much of a stretch on when you fold everything up. I also staple, mostly for presentation but I imagine it helps maintain tightness. I can't imagine putting enough glue on for it to pool - a thin bead will suit you just fine. I love love love the corners with this method. I can never get a hospital corner to look so nice as I can with those bars.

if you've got minor sags try spraying the back with warm water and letting it dry.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I agree that they do provide videos to illustrate how the product is assembled. The one I reference above shows the technique to use when using staples, which is what I did. But nowhere in any of the videos I saw or anywhere else do they state the evidently crucial step that the wrap has to be stored with the canvas side up, so that glue won’t pool on the canvas.

Fwiw, I didn’t use that much glue. Only a thin bead, as illustrated in their videos.

The dimples that exist on the canvas are due to glue and they wont be removed by applying distilled water, but thanks for mentioning that.

[Justan]

One of Breathing Color's recent videos demonstrates stapling with their EasyWrappe Pro stretcher frames (http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/196/). I think the glue does the work, but if somewhere down the line the glue lets go, the staples will still be in place.

In my experience, the Hahnemühle/BreathingColor "Pro" width bars have been cut and notched more accurately and cleanly than the standard bars, and are easier to fit into and release from the corner templates. Also I have found that nudging either size bars a 16th of an inch or so toward the center of the print, before you press them down hard against the back of the canvas, makes a tighter stretch. Another thing I've learned is to retain a piece of the tan silicone-coated paper that you remove from the tape, and use that to prevent your fingers from sticking to the tape when you press the bars into the corner templates.

It takes practice to get the corners "military bed-sheet neat", but I like it much better than the bunched-up "traditional" stretcher frame folded corners.

Thank you for replying.

One of the features that I like of their system is how clean the corners come out. The technique they recommend for achieveing that is very straight foreword.

As you indicated their design makes the staples mostly cosmetic, until at some point when the 2 layers of adhesives fail. Unfortunately, as Bill implied, it is more than likely that their technique will lead to unpredictable failures down the line as the atg and their glue age. Staples will only help a little with that.

[chaddro]

OK, I'm a curmudgeon.  And call me old-fashioned.  I just like the secure feeling I get slamming man-sized staples into the backs of humongously rigid and obsessively cross-braced 1.5" deep by 3" wide Basswood bars with the canvas tensioned to a note most sopranos can't reach.  Don't want no stinkin' flimsy canvases comin' back for redos, nossir.

Ha! I love this statement!

I am rather new to canvas stretching and coating although I've done about 30 or so pieces. I'm wondering if people are not discerning the difference between "stretchers" and "strainers".

A stretcher has "key holes" in the corners that you tap "keys" into to keep the canvas taunt.
A strainer is like a finished rigid picture frame ... you "strain" the canvas over the frame. It's only as tight as you can get it the first time round.

I prefer stretchers as I like the canvas drum tight. I just wish I could find a source on how to make that damn joint: I've seen it called either an "open mortise and tenon" or "mitered corner bridle".

[bill t.]

Ha! I love this statement!

I am rather new to canvas stretching and coating although I've done about 30 or so pieces. I'm wondering if people are not discerning the difference between "stretchers" and "strainers".

A stretcher has "key holes" in the corners that you tap "keys" into to keep the canvas taunt.
A strainer is like a finished rigid picture frame ... you "strain" the canvas over the frame. It's only as tight as you can get it the first time round.

I prefer stretchers as I like the canvas drum tight. I just wish I could find a source on how to make that damn joint: I've seen it called either an "open mortise and tenon" or "mitered corner bridle".

Good points.  I investigated having custom router bits made to cut the complicated ends of adjustable stretcher bars, but was not interested in paying $2k+ for the project.

When I was stretching a lot I used non-adjustable strainers cut on a regular miter saw.  Very quick process, made even easier by having an underpinner.  So it was important for me to get the canvas tension towards the high end to last a good long time without sagging.  But of course there's such a thing as problems coming out of too much tension, so that's another story.  But one thing I didn't get from the 3" wide strainer bars is distortion in the bars themselves, which is something I feel certain is going to happen sooner than later with the flimsy looking thin side dimension on the BC Easy bars.

Lexjet used a kind of hybrid approach on their rather beefy-looking adhesive-assisted bars.  Nice wide cross sections in both directions, I like that.  They don't say as much, but it looks to me like the corner braces that sit in the routed groove could be used to slightly add tension to the canvas later on by removing the screws and pounding a bit, but I'm not sure how that would affect the corners especially with all that yucky adhesive.

But Lexjet's groove design combined with the substantial corner braces could be a way to make adjustable stretcher bars pretty easily, IMHO.  Would not require any bizarro router work.  Just lose the adhesive and stretch the old-fashioned way.  I would try it had I not lost all interest in stretching canvas some time ago, and which I now do only under extreme duress accompanied by the promise of money.

Lexjet bars.  Have never used them, but I think they look interesing, and that's as far it goes.

[Justan]

> Lexjet used a kind of hybrid approach on their rather beefy-looking adhesive-assisted bars.  Nice wide cross sections in both directions, I like that.  They don't say as much, but it looks to me like the corner braces that sit in the routed groove could be used to slightly add tension to the canvas later on by removing the screws and pounding a bit, but I'm not sure how that would affect the corners especially with all that yucky adhesive.

Breathing color’s uses a product made by IG Wrap. In their case the corner braces are designed to add tension to the frame. As are the braces which run the width or length of the canvas. There are no screws used in their design. The groove that is cut into the frame is tapered to provide a friction fit.

> ….I would try it had I not lost all interest in stretching canvas some time ago, and which I now do only under extreme duress accompanied by the promise of money.

It costs significantly less to produce a gallery wrap than it does a surface mounted and framed piece. Pressure from the gallery owners to reduce cost is the only reason I started doing wraps. At this point, without doing a traditional stapled wrap, I'm leaning toward dropping the wrap approach. I don’t know if I have enough space to use a suitable stretcher bar for my up to 6’ long images. Of course, i haven't looked into the tools needed for that....

Thanks for the feedback!

[bill t.]

It costs significantly less to produce a gallery wrap than it does a surface mounted and framed piece. Pressure from the gallery owners to reduce cost is the only reason I started doing wraps.

Hah!  I totally kick gallery-wrapped a** with my impressively framed, price point sensitive pieces.  Seriously.  I am the terror of every art fair, the bane of every gallery wrapping maven I know, and the sweetheart of every venue owner I deal with.  All because of those frames, helped only slightly by some OK images.

Starting with a coated canvas, a sheet of Gator, and a couple sticks o' moulding I need less than an hour to mount and frame a sofa-sized piece (and BTW don't bother with anything smaller).  I net (not gross) an additional $200 to $500 for that hour.  At a cost and time investment scarcely more than gallery wrapping (hint: buy a lot of moulding at once).  And I can still sell my piece for a relative song, even through a gallery.  I should probably not even be revealing this information, but since nobody ever catches on I might as well.

Learn to frame your pieces, make more money.  Nothing will give you more of a competitive edge.  "Does that price include the frame?  Really?  Wow!"

Naked looking little gallery wraps...bah!  There is no there there.

Truth in advertising disclosure...it takes a while to learn how to make non-embarrassing frames, and some decent equipment.   Isn't that right framah?

[Justan]

I agree that doing one’s own frame making goes a way to lowering costs. I do 75% of that work now. I buy cut sticks and assemble. It’s economical. A about 2.5” wide x 2x6 foot wood frame for a pano costs about $200 including the gator and sticks. Using G2 takes the place of a glazed surface and all the above saves $$ and makes for a way better presentation.

Doing a gallery wrap where I also buy sticks, cut them to size and assemble, is about 30% of the cost of a wood frame and the related components. The time requirement is about 30% as well.

I don’t know if more people prefer a gallery wrap or a framed work.

One gallery I sell at says that $200 to $500 is the sweet spot for works and that is the compelling reason to do wraps.

The IG Wrap (that’s the stuff sold by BC) is a step in the direction of doing wraps, but it’s intended more for hobbyists or “prosumer” market than for production purposes.

I need to look into what equipment is used for stretching using the traditional methods. I've seen a couple of videos on the topic. From the videos, the looming issue quickly becomes one of having enough heated shop space for the tools.

[bill t.]

$200 to $500 is the sweet spot for smallish pieces, up to something like 3 to 4 feet wide.  I like to exploit the "sofa sized" niche in the 6 to 8 foot wide range.  The blow-em-out-the-door sweet spot for that size is $600 to $1200.  The fab costs for larger pieces is often a lesser proportion of the sales price than for smaller ones.

It's controversial, but you might consider using some of the better polystyrene mouldings.  It's quite possible to put together framed 8 footers for WAY under $200 that way, which can still make you well over 6X profit on a direct sale, or well over 2X in a gallery.

Framers of course scream bloody murder at poly, but people with credit cards don't seem to mind as long as the overall piece presents well, and they just love the savings whether or not they admit it.  I have delivered a lot of poly to $1M+ homes.  And increasingly, rather high end gallery owners are getting comfortable with well-presented, carefully chosen poly.  Actually, the best poly's look a lot better than most low end wood moulding costing 3x more.  But below the shining exceptions the average poly is still ugly crap.

BTW, 36 x 80 is a great size if you can hit it.  Doesn't overwhelm small sofas, but still looks ok with big ones.  And it's BIG and IMPRESSIVE!  People just love to be complimented on their art pieces.

Here's a best selling 8 footer.  If I had kids it would be sending them to college.  The moulding comes from the box labeled "Attorneys, CPA's, Morticians."  Although the image is only suitable for the first two.  Have also placed several of these in living rooms and bedrooms, go figure.