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Author Topic: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro  (Read 33517 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2011, 03:24:30 am »

I mentioned earlier "with certain joy" because I am a FF sensor photographer myself currently working with everybody's workhorse, a 5D2 and it seems that I will remain as such for the rest of my life unless I win the lotto. I'm not questioning your integrity but only trying to understand what's going on here! The D3X seems to have broken the law of physics.
Best regards
Eduardo

Hi Eduardo,

Nope, the D3x has not broken the laws of physics. Its pixels are about the same size as those in a IQ160/IQ180, it is therefore only common sense that its performance is similar.

In this context though, Nikon/Sony have been doing an outstanding job for a few years to optimize the shadow behavior of their sensors, which is their single most important characteristic. They have indeed created a gap vs their 35mm competition, but it is probably not larger than the gap Canon had gained when they released the 1Ds.

I have never claimed that the D3x was the equal of the backs in terms of total resolution.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 03:27:25 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Peter Devos

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2011, 04:33:22 am »

Sorry Bernard, Sony 24Mp sensor does have tons of noise even at base ISO. The 5dMk2 also is horrible with noise at 200 Iso. The Nikon D3x is OK but not as nice as the Leaf Aptus22. I thinkl there is a difference between measurable DR and usuable DR... and when comparing all sorts of 35mm files to MF files, MF clearely wins. MF is also about using a different kind of lenses, lenses that render different from 35mm lenses, it makes working a bit slower and pushes the photographer to think more before shooting. I really love my 35mm camera, but will never let MF go. These are simply two different tools, both doing a good job. ;)
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2011, 04:48:28 am »

Sorry Bernard, Sony 24Mp sensor does have tons of noise even at base ISO. The 5dMk2 also is horrible with noise at 200 Iso. The Nikon D3x is OK but not as nice as the Leaf Aptus22. I thinkl there is a difference between measurable DR and usuable DR... and when comparing all sorts of 35mm files to MF files, MF clearely wins. MF is also about using a different kind of lenses, lenses that render different from 35mm lenses, it makes working a bit slower and pushes the photographer to think more before shooting. I really love my 35mm camera, but will never let MF go. These are simply two different tools, both doing a good job. ;)

The D3x end result is somehow different from the Sony SLRs apparently; nobody knows why.

As for being better than MF, no.It isn't.  But it is close enough that at the old MF prices most people wouldn't bother to go to MF. The same argument is truer of the 5D2, which can do video, takes a $100 50mm that costs less than an MF lenscap, and will work decently when AF is not critical.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 04:50:24 am by eronald »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2011, 04:51:24 am »

The Nikon D3x is OK but not as nice as the Leaf Aptus22. I thinkl there is a difference between measurable DR and usuable DR... and when comparing all sorts of 35mm files to MF files, MF clearely wins. MF is also about using a different kind of lenses, lenses that render different from 35mm lenses, it makes working a bit slower and pushes the photographer to think more before shooting. I really love my 35mm camera, but will never let MF go. These are simply two different tools, both doing a good job. ;)

There are many good reasons to want to work with an MF camera. I totally agree with that.

Cheers,
Bernard

John R Smith

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2011, 05:12:34 am »

To go back to the OP's question for a moment.

Actually, you would have thought that the introduction of the Pentax 645D should have had a greater impact on the established MF players and their pricing structure. But there was barely a ripple.

When I shot film I had both 35mm and MF gear, and I found that the way I used them barely overlapped. Even in this digital age, I would think the same applies.

John
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julienlanoo

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2011, 06:57:17 am »

I wonder also with Pentax, i read they will be bringing out a mirror less camera.
Would this be like a RF mid format cam , like the mamiya 7 ..? that would be coowl...

I also don't understand the fuzz about the mirror less markets, isn't that the concept of RF ? ..?
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2011, 08:04:37 am »

I wonder also with Pentax, i read they will be bringing out a mirror less camera.
Would this be like a RF mid format cam , like the mamiya 7 ..? that would be coowl...

I also don't understand the fuzz about the mirror less markets, isn't that the concept of RF ? ..?


A rangefinder would be too expensive to develop and service. It would most likely be mirrorless using monitors or EVFs.

No, a mirrorless is not a rangefinder. Mirrorless cameras don't use a rangefinder to focus--rangefinders not are defined by a lack of a reflex system and a viewfinder. Rangefinders don't even need a viewfinder. The attraction of the mirror less is the compact size and the ability to adapt lenses.
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amsp

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2011, 08:08:39 am »

I too have a D3x. Yes, it is an incredible camera. Yes it seems to have broken the laws of physics, it is much better than the 5D2 in field use because it focuses and has VERY good 1600 ISO. But the images have no "bite". My old 1Ds had "bite". My P45+ has bite. Even the 5D2 has bite except it only happens on say 30% of image-ligting situations.  I don't know what "bite" is except I miss it. Maybe it's the Nikon lenses. Maybe it's something to do with noise reduction. It is something to do with texture and color.

And without "bite" the camera is only as good as what you put in front of the lens. It won't add anything, as strange as that sounds.

Would I let go of my D3x for something that cannot do Hi-ISO and focus? No way.
Would I go want to go back to the old 1Ds? If I were shooting 8x10, yes.  The only 35mm I ever saw that was better than the 1Ds was the Leica DMR back.

Our friend with the strange name, something like the sound a hen makes, coot-coot-coot, he had a 1Ds too, maybe he will comment.  


Edmund


This is exactly why I've kept my 1Ds and my P25, they have something newer cameras are lacking. It's funny how whenever a new gazillion megapixel small format is released or is on the horizon people expect owners of digital backs to dump them on fleeBay for pennies. These kind of expectations are probably by people who haven't used MF backs, at least not in any kind of professional setting. I can tell you as a long time user of both MFD and 35mm that I wouldn't trade my P25 for a 100MP Canikon, well maybe I would, then I'd sell it and buy two P25s ;). There is so much more than MP that makes people choose to work with digital backs over 35mm.

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julienlanoo

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2011, 10:19:05 am »

Aijt but, i can't imagine it's "comfortable" to work with..
looking to a 'screen' ,  give me a viewer :) old fashioned ! ) yeah baby :D

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uaiomex

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2011, 11:58:49 am »

Edmund:
Thanks for chiming in. Only your post is a bit confusing to me. It first seems that bite (lacking in the D3x) is a bad thing. Later you wrote "without bite the camera is only as good as what you put in front of the lens. It won't add anything, as strange as that sounds". Now, in this whole sentence "lack of bite" sounds like a positive issue to me. In my understanding, the sensor shouldn't add anything to the picture, Zilch. That's the lens job. "Qualities" are to be added in PP, I think.

For ASMP, bite without any doubt, seems to be a very good thing.
 
I'm not sure either what "bite" is. At some point time ago, I understood bite as something that added sharpness or an engraving quality to the resolution itself. Also, it seems that people talk about bite only in sensors with pixels around 9 units (can't remember the exact name right now). This is where the P25 and the 5DI are. I heard the 5DI had bite. I heard also that the 5D2 has less bite than the original 5D. Personally, I like my 5D2 images more than those from my 5D. I'd say they look "more photographic", or "less digital".

Can you both add more thoughts?
TIA
Eduardo



I too have a D3x. Yes, it is an incredible camera. Yes it seems to have broken the laws of physics, it is much better than the 5D2 in field use because it focuses and has VERY good 1600 ISO. But the images have no "bite". My old 1Ds had "bite". My P45+ has bite. Even the 5D2 has bite except it only happens on say 30% of image-ligting situations.  I don't know what "bite" is except I miss it. Maybe it's the Nikon lenses. Maybe it's something to do with noise reduction. It is something to do with texture and color.

And without "bite" the camera is only as good as what you put in front of the lens. It won't add anything, as strange as that sounds.

Would I let go of my D3x for something that cannot do Hi-ISO and focus? No way.
Would I go want to go back to the old 1Ds? If I were shooting 8x10, yes.  The only 35mm I ever saw that was better than the 1Ds was the Leica DMR back.

Our friend with the strange name, something like the sound a hen makes, coot-coot-coot, he had a 1Ds too, maybe he will comment.  


ASMP also said:
"This is exactly why I've kept my 1Ds and my P25, they have something newer cameras are lacking. It's funny how whenever a new gazillion megapixel small format is released or is on the horizon people expect owners of digital backs to dump them on fleeBay for pennies. These kind of expectations are probably by people who haven't used MF backs, at least not in any kind of professional setting. I can tell you as a long time user of both MFD and 35mm that I wouldn't trade my P25 for a 100MP Canikon, well maybe I would, then I'd sell it and buy two P25s . There is so much more than MP that makes people choose to work with digital backs over 35mm!




Edmund

« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:04:21 pm by uaiomex »
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amsp

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2011, 01:03:20 pm »


For ASMP, bite without any doubt, seems to be a very good thing.
 
I'm not sure either what "bite" is. At some point time ago, I understood bite as something that added sharpness or an engraving quality to the resolution itself. Also, it seems that people talk about bite only in sensors with pixels around 9 units (can't remember the exact name right now). This is where the P25 and the 5DI are. I heard the 5DI had bite. I heard also that the 5D2 has less bite than the original 5D. Personally, I like my 5D2 images more than those from my 5D. I'd say they look "more photographic", or "less digital".

Can you both add more thoughts?
TIA
Eduardo

Personally I'm not sure I would use the word "bite", but rather a fullness and more pleasing render to the files (in my eyes that is). I like the 5D mkII (never used the mkI), but there is something about the 1Ds that I like too, the files feel a bit more organic/analog maybe? It's hard to pinpoint, and I'm not that interested in doing so either tbh, I'm an image guy not a tech guy. The P25 on the other hand definitely has a richness to it's files that I've never seen by any 35mm, this is especially easy to tell when you do a lot of PP on them. It's also the closest thing to film as far as look & feel goes that I've found in the digital world. I'm sure the Mamiya glass coupled with the sensor has a hand in this too. As I said, I'm not interested in the tech behind it, but like you mentioned I think there might be something you loose by making smaller microns. At least I know there are others who have similar feelings of love for the older 9 micron backs.

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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2011, 05:36:26 pm »

Edmund:
Thanks for chiming in. Only your post is a bit confusing to me. It first seems that bite (lacking in the D3x) is a bad thing. Later you wrote "without bite the camera is only as good as what you put in front of the lens. It won't add anything, as strange as that sounds". Now, in this whole sentence "lack of bite" sounds like a positive issue to me. In my understanding, the sensor shouldn't add anything to the picture, Zilch. That's the lens job. "Qualities" are to be added in PP, I think.

Can you both add more thoughts?
TIA
Eduardo


If the camera results don't add pictorial quality, coloring, then one has to compensate by situational photography. In other words, if the model doesn't give off a skin glow, you'd better make her smile.

In some way, the D3x images don't make one feel "there". The P45+ I own, when it works, does do that. The 1Ds does too. Even the 5D2 does it when I'm lucky.

However, the D3x NEVER, Never, never misses a shot completely. It's the ideal camera to use when you cannot retake an image. It is never severely out of focus, it never exposes totally badly, it never screws up the colors or skin tone. And it captures a huge amount of detail, Whatever I do, it gets an image. The 5D2 is much more hit and miss; it sometimes gives completely extraordinary images, and then in different light just mush. The Phamiya is simply never sharp; I think it's not focus but the glass over the sensor. I had several samples, they were all yucky but a loaner P45 was dead sharp, razor sharp.

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 05:39:41 pm by eronald »
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gubaguba

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2012, 09:02:22 am »

I used to think that the cost of MF was sort of fixed.  There are limited players in the sensor manufacture which could hold the market at a given price.  It has been around 25-30k for a long time.  So my thinking was they would stay there.  However Pentax introduces a camera with a 40 MP sensor for about a 1/3 of the cost. So either they have a better business model or the price has been somewhat artificially high.  My guess is the latter. 

D800 if it exists wouldn't be a game changer.  A 36MP camera in that format is simply marketing over physics.  There was a great video circulating of a presentation given by the inventor of CMOS technology and he explains it quite clearly.  Sorry I forget the name. 

Basically as I see the MF pricing the way it is because they can.  You essentially have two chip makers and up till recently 3 back or camera makers.  Not a whole lot of competition and not a very big market.  The car market is a good example.  Most four door family sedans are within a certain price range because the marketing department knows that is what you are going to spend.  If your a Kia or a new maker you need to offer something similar or more at the same price.  It is how you gain market share when you are not well known.  Enter Pentax. 

Nikon is not a factor because it is in a different class not better or worse just different.

Paul Guba


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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2012, 11:58:07 am »

Dear Paul

The market price is certainly not fixed among the different manufacturers of digital backs. A company has to price its products according to a certain gross margin to be profitable, respectively not to lose money, and to assure the survival for the company. The gross margin is what comes over the fix costs, which can easily be calculated. This gives the selling price. When it comes to digital backs, which is the main product (understand the product with which they need to make their profit) of the manufacturers of these backs, the leverage is very low: it simply needs a certain minimum margin. otherwise the company loses money. R&D is something which needs to be calculated in the price as well. Each new digital back costs 100s of thousands dollars or euros in R&D costs, in some cases over a million.
True, and you mention it yourself, the MFDB market is not a big market, and profit cannot be reached with mass sales and sales numbers like in the DSLR business. We are speaking about a market of a few thousands new digital backs every year, to be shared between the 3 players (4 and even more before).

The existing manufacturers are all located in countries with basically the same costs for salaries, taxes, etc ... These companies are also all of comparable size. It is only logical that the margin needed is more or less the same for those companies to not lose money.
There is no secret agreement between the back manufacturers like it has been said so many times and to keep the prices high. That doesn't make sense and wouldn't be possible.

Leica and Pentax are not back manufacturers and do certainly sell with another business model in mind and not for a market of a few thousands sales per year.

Best regards
Thierry

I used to think that the cost of MF was sort of fixed.  There are limited players in the sensor manufacture which could hold the market at a given price.  It has been around 25-30k for a long time.  So my thinking was they would stay there.  However Pentax introduces a camera with a 40 MP sensor for about a 1/3 of the cost. So either they have a better business model or the price has been somewhat artificially high.  My guess is the latter.  

D800 if it exists wouldn't be a game changer.  A 36MP camera in that format is simply marketing over physics.  There was a great video circulating of a presentation given by the inventor of CMOS technology and he explains it quite clearly.  Sorry I forget the name.  

Basically as I see the MF pricing the way it is because they can.  You essentially have two chip makers and up till recently 3 back or camera makers.  Not a whole lot of competition and not a very big market.  The car market is a good example.  Most four door family sedans are within a certain price range because the marketing department knows that is what you are going to spend.  If your a Kia or a new maker you need to offer something similar or more at the same price.  It is how you gain market share when you are not well known.  Enter Pentax.  

Nikon is not a factor because it is in a different class not better or worse just different.

Paul Guba



« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 12:41:42 pm by TH_Alpa »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2012, 01:37:36 pm »

Dear Thierry,

 Now you need to explain the Pentax :)


Edmund


Dear Paul

The market price is certainly not fixed among the different manufacturers of digital backs. A company has to price its products according to a certain gross margin to be profitable, respectively not to lose money, and to assure the survival for the company. The gross margin is what comes over the fix costs, which can easily be calculated. This gives the selling price. When it comes to digital backs, which is the main product (understand the product with which they need to make their profit) of the manufacturers of these backs, the leverage is very low: it simply needs a certain minimum margin. otherwise the company loses money. R&D is something which needs to be calculated in the price as well. Each new digital back costs 100s of thousands dollars or euros in R&D costs, in some cases over a million.
True, and you mention it yourself, the MFDB market is not a big market, and profit cannot be reached with mass sales and sales numbers like in the DSLR business. We are speaking about a market of a few thousands new digital backs every year, to be shared between the 3 players (4 and even more before).

The existing manufacturers are all located in countries with basically the same costs for salaries, taxes, etc ... These companies are also all of comparable size. It is only logical that the margin needed is more or less the same for those companies to not lose money.
There is no secret agreement between the back manufacturers like it has been said so many times and to keep the prices high. That doesn't make sense and wouldn't be possible.

Leica and Pentax are not back manufacturers and do certainly sell with another business model in mind and not for a market of a few thousands sales per year.

Best regards
Thierry

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jeremypayne

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2012, 01:47:21 pm »

... The market price is certainly not fixed among the different manufacturers of digital backs. A company has to price its products according to a certain gross margin to be profitable, respectively not to lose money, and to assure the survival for the company. The gross margin is what comes over the fix costs, which can easily be calculated. This gives the selling price ....

Sorta ... customers don't care about your costs ... they care about the value a product adds ... so for pricing to be successful, it must reflect  the value it brings to the end-user.  If an customer-acceptable value/price dynamic results in a price that is in excess of costs, then you win ... if it is below your costs, you either bring costs down, value up ... or you lose.
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2012, 02:18:04 pm »

Sorta ... customers don't care about your costs ... they care about the value a product adds ... so for pricing to be successful, it must reflect  the value it brings to the end-user.  If an customer-acceptable value/price dynamic results in a price that is in excess of costs, then you win ... if it is below your costs, you either bring costs down, value up ... or you lose.

Not really. In that case, you either sell something or your don't. Margins are really not that large and changing the price is not really an option.
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2012, 02:23:54 pm »

Dear Thierry,

 Now you need to explain the Pentax :)


Edmund



Except for some factors of scale, I thought his explanation would cover Pentax also.
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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2012, 03:22:49 pm »

Jeremy,

With all due respect and knowing that what you are saying may be true in other markets, that's not the way it worked in the back manufacturer company I used to work for 20 years, it is quite the opposite. Your remark may apply and be true for other markets, but not in the professional photography market in general and even less in the back business. Costs can not be brought down at will and wish, particularly not with digital backs in such a small and niche market. It is never as you describe it "If an customer-acceptable value/price dynamic results in a price that is in excess of costs, then you win ...": we would have gone bankrupt after 2 years.

Best regards
Thierry

Sorta ... customers don't care about your costs ... they care about the value a product adds ... so for pricing to be successful, it must reflect  the value it brings to the end-user.  If an customer-acceptable value/price dynamic results in a price that is in excess of costs, then you win ... if it is below your costs, you either bring costs down, value up ... or you lose.
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TH_Alpa

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Re: Hasselblad/Phase One Prices with D800 intro
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2012, 03:23:35 pm »

So it is, little options left.

Thierry

Not really. In that case, you either sell something or your don't. Margins are really not that large and changing the price is not really an option.
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