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Author Topic: Cost Per megapixel  (Read 18190 times)

Brian Hirschfeld

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Cost Per megapixel
« on: December 05, 2011, 09:33:25 pm »

I was bored, while in my sickly state, so I figured out the average cost per megapixel, and the average cost of a lens for the major medium format digital manufacturers and their main camera systems. Nothing unexpected, but sort of interesting to see it in numbers.

645DF Family
PhaseOne IQ180  Cost Per Pixel $550
PhaseOne P65+ Cost per Pixel $533

Leaf Aptus II 80mp Cost Per Pixel $413
Leaf Aptus II 56mp Cost Per Pixel $464

Average Cost Per Lens $2786 (14 Available From B&H)

Hasselblad
Hasselblad H4D-60 Cost Per Pixel $700
Hasselblad H4D-200MS (50MP) Cost Per Pixel $880

Average Cost Per Lens $4270 (12 Available From B&H)

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theguywitha645d

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 09:51:53 pm »

I am glad to see my Pentax 645D "only" cost me $247.50 per megapixel. Or I can get about 4,000 pixels for a dollar.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 09:54:44 pm »

Sorry I was only counting interchangeable backs.

Leica S2's Cost Per Pixel is $575 if anyone cares as well.
and their average cost per lens is $6800

which is also to be expected...
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EricWHiss

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 10:37:23 pm »

I'm trying to figure out how you got to those figures.   You must be going by list price, and maybe even with the camera body included, because I paid significantly lower for my backs, and I think the prices you list for HB backs seems wrong because in my experience they have been on par or cheaper per pixel than the other makes.

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Rob C

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 04:13:07 am »

You really need to get well soon.



I know, Keith, it's almost as sad as my own final deal with Rusty: exactly a euro a cc...

Rob C

design_freak

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 05:29:39 am »

Can anyone calculate how much it costs to take a picture? How much the customer pays for a picture - adding up all the photos taken at the session ...
I wish you a successful computation  ::)
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DF

design_freak

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 07:20:06 am »

Obviously your not serious.

This is like asking what does a car cost per mile?  

Anyway . . .

What I can tell you is digital has NOT lowered the costs, if anything from film to digital , at least in commerce, the price has gone up 10 fold.

Maybe it's lower if you shoot a low volume, shoot for yourself, have long deadlines and a lot of free time, but for our studios it's not even close to imagine that for every day we shoot there are 3 to 4 days of post production, just to get to the web gallery stage.

Now we shoot motion and stills on every project, multiple cameras and with digital the volume per day has gone up 5 fold, still we are now our own labs, colorists, pre press houses, retouching/effects managers and in some case editors.

I'm not knocking it, because having the control of concept to delivery has upped our role with a client (either agency or direct), makes us a much larger player in the marketing plan and more importantly has allowed us to grow creatively and expanded our commerce.

It's also allowed us to be whatever we want to be.  Film makers, still photographers, creative partners, the list goes on.

Still.

When we started with digital still capture 7 or 8 years ago, our then studio manager standing in front of his computer, with two calibration pucks around his neck, a stack of drives in front of his monitor said to me, "Someday, we'll look back at this and say wow, I remember when film was only 20 per roll".

He was so right.


IMO

BC


You're right, I agree with you.
It was a provocation. I just can not see any sense of calculating how much a pixel.
How much you pay for 1KM in Fiat Panda, and how much you pay for 1KM in Rolls-Royce. Or even better, it is cheaper in ferrarii or Rolls-Royce?
Everyone has different requirements, so these calculations have no meaning.

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DF

Gigi

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2011, 07:22:33 am »

Sure they do. You take the cost as noted above, divide it by what you really paid, and generate a satisfaction index. >1, you feel great. <1, you stop reading. 
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Geoff

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2011, 07:23:06 am »

Just got a P45+ for $323 per MP.  Pretty good deal me thinks :D  The Pentax deal does look pretty good though TGW645.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2011, 07:24:42 am »

Just got a P45+ for $323 per MP.  Pretty good deal me thinks :D  The Pentax deal does look pretty good though TGW645.

See thats what I was talking about, not the value it has to the end user, simply purchasing price to mp, found it rather interesting way of thinking about it :D
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 07:37:17 am »

I do not want to even come close to doing the math on my MF system it would put me in depression. ROTFLMAO
But end of day I absolutely love the results so i could care less what it cost and the ROI is nice but I shoot for me first. I'll get my money back eventually with the client end, not worried about it. I think sometimes we should forget the business side of things and just enjoy our passion for what we do.
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design_freak

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2011, 07:44:17 am »

I do not want to even come close to doing the math on my MF system it would put me in depression. ROTFLMAO
But end of day I absolutely love the results so i could care less what it cost and the ROI is nice but I shoot for me first. I'll get my money back eventually with the client end, not worried about it. I think sometimes we should forget the business side of things and just enjoy our passion for what we do.

+1000
TRUE
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DF

Rob C

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2011, 08:36:01 am »

Maybe what Cooter is saying is that the days of the small, independent solo photographer are over?

Going on from there to what Guy was advocating: yep, that was my theme song too; and you know what, at the end of the day, when the business days are gone, you wish you'd handled it from the money point of view instead. Funny how your life and expectations are so much more demanding than you imagined they were going to be when you were young and living on adrenalin bursts.

On the other hand, when the calculations were telling you you'd be just fine, nobody told you about the banks effing you and everything else right up to the eyes. Bastards. And they still have the gall to pay themselves bonuses for having screwed you; mothers should be thinking about actually paying you some interest instead!

Rob C

theguywitha645d

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 08:59:19 am »

I just can not see any sense of calculating how much a pixel.

Well, when you are sick in bed with only a TV to keep you company, you need something to keep you from going crazy. Or is that a symptom of it? I forget...
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2011, 09:11:17 am »

Maybe what Cooter is saying is that the days of the small, independent solo photographer are over?

Going on from there to what Guy was advocating: yep, that was my theme song too; and you know what, at the end of the day, when the business days are gone, you wish you'd handled it from the money point of view instead. Funny how your life and expectations are so much more demanding than you imagined they were going to be when you were young and living on adrenalin bursts.

On the other hand, when the calculations were telling you you'd be just fine, nobody told you about the banks effing you and everything else right up to the eyes. Bastards. And they still have the gall to pay themselves bonuses for having screwed you; mothers should be thinking about actually paying you some interest instead!

Rob C

Well I should really add to this also that for the younger aspiring Pros and for a lot of shooters 35mm is good enough and need to keep your eye on your books and your bottom line. I thinks older Pros or ones that have been in this for awhile get to the point its all about what you want from your files. MF is a damn slippery slope and the costs are very high, so we should be careful or at least i should advocating it in general. Sure I spent a load of money over the years and if I really looked at it maybe over spent too but I have done well for myself so its a easier pill to swallow but for the new breed coming in and younger ones getting there start watch this slope carefully as i have seen more shooters being forced out because of costs and lack of business. So as a person that advices a lot of people on this stuff I do need to be careful even though me personally has a somewhat different attitude towards it since I have been in it so long its all about me now and what i want. Certainly for some clients 35mm is good enough and I still shoot it but I'm after much more personally and Professionally. I love my MF files it is really just that simple.

For the hobbyist it's all about what they want and honestly I am a little jealous of that freedom. LOL
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 09:13:13 am by Guy Mancuso »
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mmurph

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2011, 10:45:35 am »

Can anyone calculate how much it costs to take a picture?

As has been said, obviously apples & oranges & pears.  

I have a spreadsheet buried somewhere with my actual numbers before I closed my studio 3-4 years ago, going back to around 1995.

I migrated to the computer in 1998 for all output.  Scanning film at the time, 35mm, 645, & 6x7. So all of the post capture costs, once the image is in the computer, are basically the same for film & digital. Digital capture takes out the cost of the scanner, no scan time, no spotting, filing, lab trips, etc.

I was doing fashion when I quit, so I was making a lot of images. More with digital than film of course. Averaging maybe 600-1,200 images from a 6-8 hour digital fashion shoot.

My cost per frame at the time, for pro 35mm film & develop only was $.33 per frame.  For 6x7 it was $1 per frame.  

For 2 years after ther Canon 1Ds2 came out, I averaged about 30,000 frames each year for studio & personal work with it.  I bought for $7,800, and sold it at a price so that my total net cost was about $3,000, for the 2 years of use, with CF cards, etc. I was already a Canon photog, so no lenses et al.

So the 1Ds2 net cost was approx $.05 per frame, based on my volume. vs

* 1Ds2 at $.05 per image
* 35mm at $.33 per image (which I **hated** and had given up in 1998) ,
* 645 at $.60 per image = ($20/33 images on a Pentax 645N, I could tolerate 645) , and
* 6x7 at $1.00 per image  ($20/20 image on a Mamiya 7II)  
* 4x5 at $5.00 per image


In 1998, 1999, and 2000 I shot an average of 5,000 frames of 6x7 per year, at $1 per frame. Plus some 645 for personal work & family stuff.  I was aware of that because I did a studio budget at the beginning every year. For film, equipment, conferences, marketing, trips, moldels, etc. based on the previous years actuals.

But with the 1Ds2 I was also shooting  30,000/5,000 = 6x as much as with 6x7 film.  

So call it $.05x6 = $.30 per "image set" with the 1Ds2, or about the same as 35mm.

But a lot easier capture than scanning. And I was never happy with my 35mm images, whereas the 1Ds2 replaced my 6x7 eventually (I sold after 1 year with no use.)

For the film,, I have to add in the scanner cost.  From 1998 to about 2003 or 2004, I was buying new scanners which cost me, on average, about $1,000 per year. That was for MF, those scanners were pretty expensive. I had 35mm scanners before that.  

First in 1998 was $2,200 or so Dimage Multi, used that 2-3 years, never sold it. Then I bought an Agfa flatbed instead of a Nikon 8000 or Multi 2 around 2001 so that I could scan 4x5

At a rate of 5,000 images per year, that is an additional $.20 per image for scanner amortization.  So a net $1.20 to capture a 6x7 frame into the computer.

I would expect, had I gone MFD about the time I bought ther 1Ds2, the cost may have equaled the $1 per frame of 6x7. Instaed I moved to 4x5 film capture, at a cost of $5 per sheet (excluding equip & scanner) for those captures that needed it. I think I budgeted for 400 sheets of 4x5 my last year, 2006 or 2007.

Sorry, not just sick, disabled & doing nothing but staring at the walls!  :-\

Plus I have a photography undergrad and an MBA, so I followed the numbers pretty closely. Never made a decent image in my life, but I have nicely formatted spreadsheets to show for it!!  8)

Cheers!
Michael
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 11:16:23 am by mmurph »
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2011, 11:58:46 am »

As has been said, obviously apples & oranges & pears.  

I have a spreadsheet buried somewhere with my actual numbers before I closed my studio 3-4 years ago, going back to around 1995.

I migrated to the computer in 1998 for all output.  Scanning film at the time, 35mm, 645, & 6x7. So all of the post capture costs, once the image is in the computer, are basically the same for film & digital. Digital capture takes out the cost of the scanner, no scan time, no spotting, filing, lab trips, etc.

I was doing fashion when I quit, so I was making a lot of images. More with digital than film of course. Averaging maybe 600-1,200 images from a 6-8 hour digital fashion shoot.

My cost per frame at the time, for pro 35mm film & develop only was $.33 per frame.  For 6x7 it was $1 per frame.  

For 2 years after ther Canon 1Ds2 came out, I averaged about 30,000 frames each year for studio & personal work with it.  I bought for $7,800, and sold it at a price so that my total net cost was about $3,000, for the 2 years of use, with CF cards, etc. I was already a Canon photog, so no lenses et al.

So the 1Ds2 net cost was approx $.05 per frame, based on my volume. vs

* 1Ds2 at $.05 per image
* 35mm at $.33 per image (which I **hated** and had given up in 1998) ,
* 645 at $.60 per image = ($20/33 images on a Pentax 645N, I could tolerate 645) , and
* 6x7 at $1.00 per image  ($20/20 image on a Mamiya 7II)  
* 4x5 at $5.00 per image


In 1998, 1999, and 2000 I shot an average of 5,000 frames of 6x7 per year, at $1 per frame. Plus some 645 for personal work & family stuff.  I was aware of that because I did a studio budget at the beginning every year. For film, equipment, conferences, marketing, trips, moldels, etc. based on the previous years actuals.

But with the 1Ds2 I was also shooting  30,000/5,000 = 6x as much as with 6x7 film.  

So call it $.05x6 = $.30 per "image set" with the 1Ds2, or about the same as 35mm.

But a lot easier capture than scanning. And I was never happy with my 35mm images, whereas the 1Ds2 replaced my 6x7 eventually (I sold after 1 year with no use.)

For the film,, I have to add in the scanner cost.  From 1998 to about 2003 or 2004, I was buying new scanners which cost me, on average, about $1,000 per year. That was for MF, those scanners were pretty expensive. I had 35mm scanners before that.  

First in 1998 was $2,200 or so Dimage Multi, used that 2-3 years, never sold it. Then I bought an Agfa flatbed instead of a Nikon 8000 or Multi 2 around 2001 so that I could scan 4x5

At a rate of 5,000 images per year, that is an additional $.20 per image for scanner amortization.  So a net $1.20 to capture a 6x7 frame into the computer.

I would expect, had I gone MFD about the time I bought ther 1Ds2, the cost may have equaled the $1 per frame of 6x7. Instaed I moved to 4x5 film capture, at a cost of $5 per sheet (excluding equip & scanner) for those captures that needed it. I think I budgeted for 400 sheets of 4x5 my last year, 2006 or 2007.

Sorry, not just sick, disabled & doing nothing but staring at the walls!  :-\

Plus I have a photography undergrad and an MBA, so I followed the numbers pretty closely. Never made a decent image in my life, but I have nicely formatted spreadsheets to show for it!!  8)

Cheers!
Michael

Wow, talk about meticulous. I found this fascinating to see the way you had recorded all of your costs in such detail. See I was only out of commission for a few weeks and I got to cost per megapixel, imagine if was longer where I would've gotten. Its amazing the things you wind up doing when your sitting in a room alone all day. I wound up doing some Macro photography (because it was easy and I didn't have to move) and some astrophotography (had someone else carry the camera out). Rather maddening not being able to shoot what I want, when I want. I do love how exactly you got down the specific cost per image for various formats for you.
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Sheldon N

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2011, 12:56:13 pm »

Just don't apply the cost per megapixel formula to cameras like the A77 or NEX 7, or heaven forbid a point and shoot.  ;D

I think I paid $5 per megapixel for my son's used Nikon point and shoot camera (4 megapixels, $20 price). :D
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2011, 01:15:20 pm »

Just don't apply the cost per megapixel formula to cameras like the A77 or NEX 7, or heaven forbid a point and shoot.  ;D

I think I paid $5 per megapixel for my son's used Nikon point and shoot camera (4 megapixels, $20 price). :D

I wouldn't even dignify those with my time ;)

besides 500 dollars is way more interesting then 5 ;)
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yaya

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Re: Cost Per megapixel
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 01:23:19 pm »

Just don't apply the cost per megapixel formula to cameras like the A77 or NEX 7, or heaven forbid a point and shoot.  ;D

I think I paid $5 per megapixel for my son's used Nikon point and shoot camera (4 megapixels, $20 price). :D

I paid £1.95 for an iPhone 3GS camera module....and another £0.95 for the toolkit

That's 90p per megapixel...
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