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Author Topic: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF  (Read 4505 times)

dreed

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Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« on: November 03, 2011, 11:36:52 pm »

I'm rather intrigued.

The sensor in this new camera will deliver 8.3MP on a FF sensor. That's fewer pixels than the first (1DS) FF sensor in a wholey Canon product.

The entire MP "race" has taken an interesting turn in the last month for Canon - the 1DX will be 18MP on FF, down from 21MP in the 1DS3 and the new video orientated DSLR will have even fewer MP than any other Canon FF camera before it.

Given that if the new camera does indeed arrive with 8.3MP and all of the other new technology since the 1DS, it will be very interesting indeed to see how the DR and noise of the sensor measure up.
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Josh-H

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2011, 12:36:15 am »

Put me squarely in the 'rather intrigued' camp as well.

This is all very exciting for the video shooters, the C300, the new Video based DSLR, Scarlet.. its quite literally all happening in video at the moment.

I posted this in the motion forum.. but if there isn't anything in a 1D body soon with more MPX I am going to feel quite left out in the cold!  ???
(I was really hoping for an upgrade to the 1DS MKIII with more pixels. )

I don't think Canon will abandon those wanting more pixels in a 1 series, but clearly its not their priority at the moment.

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Sheldon N

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2011, 02:13:20 am »

I think you're mixing up some of the spec's.  No one has specified what the resolution of the sensor on this new camera is. The 8.3 megapixel figure is from the C300 sensor, which is Super35 size (smaller, like APS-C).  The only thing that Canon has said about this new camera is that it is a full frame DSLR (obviously will shoot still photos too), and that it will do 4k video. The 4k video works on a cropped portion of the full frame sensor, roughly the same size as 1.3 crop APS-H.

Canon's press release says:
Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications.

I'd guess that with the 4k video capability, we aren't looking at the same sensor that's in the 1D X. And I'd also guess that based on the phrase "high resolution production applications" that the sensor will be higher megapixels than the 1D X. Even though the video output is 4k from a 1.3 crop of the full frame, that doesn't mean that the native resolution is the same. All the other EOS cameras with video capability have much higher still resolution than their video output.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2011, 02:19:03 am »

I don't think Canon will abandon those wanting more pixels in a 1 series, but clearly its not their priority at the moment.

It seems pretty sure that they have no plans for a 1Ds MkIV. The closest think you might get is a 5D Mk3/3D with vertical grip.

It should be mostly OK depending on the specs (splash proofness, dual memory cards,...).

I also do not belive that Nikon will release a D4x.

Cheers,
Bernard

RobertJ

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2011, 06:23:23 am »

The C300 is NOT a 4K camera. 

The Canon 4K DSLR does not exist.

The Scarlet is already in a different universe compared to any of Canon's offerings, and is here right now, for only $10K.
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dreed

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2011, 07:37:17 am »

I think you're mixing up some of the spec's.  No one has specified what the resolution of the sensor on this new camera is. The 8.3 megapixel figure is from the C300 sensor, which is Super35 size (smaller, like APS-C).  The only thing that Canon has said about this new camera is that it is a full frame DSLR (obviously will shoot still photos too), and that it will do 4k video. The 4k video works on a cropped portion of the full frame sensor, roughly the same size as 1.3 crop APS-H.

Canon's press release says:
Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications.

I'd guess that with the 4k video capability, we aren't looking at the same sensor that's in the 1D X. And I'd also guess that based on the phrase "high resolution production applications" that the sensor will be higher megapixels than the 1D X. Even though the video output is 4k from a 1.3 crop of the full frame, that doesn't mean that the native resolution is the same. All the other EOS cameras with video capability have much higher still resolution than their video output.

Yes, you're right. I mixed up what text was attribute with which camera when I was reading the "announcement" page on LuLa.
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MrSmith

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2011, 05:58:29 am »

The Scarlet is already in a different universe compared to any of Canon's offerings, and is here right now, for only $10K.

is it in the utopian one? or can you walk into a shop, hand over the cash and walk out with one?
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BJL

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Beware different pixels counting methods
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2011, 05:42:42 pm »

The C300 is NOT a 4K camera ... The Canon 4K DSLR does not exist.
If so, then neither does the 4K RED Scarlet-X, once you note the different way that RED counts pixels compared to the way that Canon (and Sony) does with its video cameras. Canon is producing each of its 1920x1080 output pixels from FOUR photo-sites: 1 red, 1 blue, 2 green. This sounds like using the Bayer CFA as used in RED cameras and all other "DSLRS-sized" Canon sensors, and if so, it means 3840x2080 photosites. When RED says 4K, it is instead counting each single color photo-site in its Bayer CFA sensor, so the horizontal photosite count in Scarlet-X video output is about 4000 vs 3840 for the C300.

In other words, the C300 and RED Scarlet-X video frames are roughly 8MP in the Bayer CFA digital still camera way of counting.
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dreed

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Re: Beware different pixels counting methods
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2011, 06:33:24 pm »

If so, then neither does the 4K RED Scarlet-X, once you note the different way that RED counts pixels compared to the way that Canon (and Sony) does with its video cameras. Canon is producing each of its 1920x1080 output pixels from FOUR photo-sites: 1 red, 1 blue, 2 green. This sounds like using the Bayer CFA as used in RED cameras and all other "DSLRS-sized" Canon sensors, and if so, it means 3840x2080 photosites. When RED says 4K, it is instead counting each single color photo-site in its Bayer CFA sensor, so the horizontal photosite count in Scarlet-X video output is about 4000 vs 3840 for the C300.

In other words, the C300 and RED Scarlet-X video frames are roughly 8MP in the Bayer CFA digital still camera way of counting.

Canon make a point that the C300 does not demosaic the data from the sensor. Is this something that will benefit picture quality or does it just allow for a faster pipeline or both?

If they scaled up to a 4k camera, I think that means a 32MP sensor?
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Graeme Nattress

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2011, 07:35:15 pm »

Both C300 and Scarlet have CMOS Bayer Pattern Colour Filter Arrays. The Scarlet's is 5120x2700, albeit with a cropped region of 4096x2160 typically used for movie capture, all photosites being read individually. The C300 is 3840x2160. It's not sure at this stage if all the photosites are read individually on the C300 or not - it could be that the pair of greens are read individually and then combined, or they could be combined as they are read out.

As the C300 produces a 1920x1080 direct image from the Bayer pattern, we must compare this to how the conventional method would be, which is to produce a full demosaic of the image, then downsample to 1920x1080 with proper filtering. I've attached an image comparing these two alternative methods.

The "quick extraction" method as we think is used by the C300 shows chroma moire because no attempt is made to interpolate to align the red and blue photosites with the greens. It also shows some aliasing as you've produced a smaller image without using a downsampling filter.

The full extraction method as you'd use with the REDs shows a smoother image, less aliasing, and no chroma moire. It's also a tad sharper.

I produced the example demonstration quickly, but when I get the chance I'm going to code up a fuller demonstration, and also one that will feed in more high frequency detail to show what happens as both systems are fed image data that would produce more severe aliasing.

Of course, what we need to do is get the C300 on a test chart and see how it performs. It could be that they use a much stronger OLPF (with the increased loss of resolution), or it could be that they use their typical DSLR OLPF and we'll get a similar result as to what we get with sRAW. I've attached an example from sRAW that I did with the 1DmkIII, showing that although chroma moire is reduced, luma aliasing is vastly increased, giving additional artifacts compared to a full demosaic.

In practise, the RED's perform exceptionally well with regards to aliasing and moire. Not perfect as that'd be nigh on impossible to achieve and still have image sharpness, but certainly the best of any movie camera I've measured and I've had to measure quite a few.

But what are the benefits of a quick extraction approach? Simple - it needs next to no hardware to achieve, and that makes it both quick and cheap to implement. And the drawbacks are that it impedes image quality.

Coming from a stills background, aliasing is not the issue it is with movie capture. On a still, if you have an issue you can perhaps go and paint it out by hand, but you can't do that on motion easily. Aliases also move in the opposite direction to that of the motion in the scene, causing motion adaptive codecs like MPEG2 extra work to compress the image. And motion makes aliasing more easily visible than in a still.

Graeme
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2011, 08:06:12 pm »

Of course, what we need to do is get the C300 on a test chart and see how it performs.

Hi Graeme,

I agree, and until then everything else is conjecture.

Cheers,
Bart
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wolfnowl

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2011, 03:40:34 pm »

This probably fits in here (post on Twitter by a certain website and forum host who shall remain nameless...)

The Truth About 2K, 4K and The Future of Pixels

Mike.
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Graeme Nattress

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Re: Canon DSLR: 4k video, 8.3MP sensor - FF
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2011, 04:23:17 pm »

That article doesn't really fit in anywhere as it's highly biassed and wrong:

YCbCr chroma sub-sampling is given for instance a 4:2:2 notation. That notation is not applicable to sensors, but my buddy John thinks it is.

The Genesis uses a colour filter array of type RGB stripe which John thinks gives him "4:4:4", but because the colour channels are not co-sited and he's using inadequate optical low pass filtering, he gets luma aliasing vertically and chroma moire horizontally creating rainbows in a black and white image, see attached image.

Resolution is of-course a measured parameter, and as a company RED have been utterly forthcoming about the measured resolution of the recording system - OLPF->sensor->R3D file->decoded image. We don't use electronic sharpening as we believe that best applied in post production with the target output media in mind. On measured resolution our "4k" leads to ~3.2k of real resolution. The F35 makes it out to 1.9k only if you allow for aliasing and chroma moire and horizontal chroma moire integrates out to grey leaving you feeling the image is soft horizontally. It's not how many pixels you have on your sensor - it's what you do with them. That aspect directly relates to the Canon situation.

We regularly view 4k v 2k in the cinema at RED studios. Yes, you can see the difference. And part of the advantage is that you CAN sit closer and get a more immersive experience.

John is right about 48fps and 60fps being part of the future of cinematography though. Peter Jackson is shooting Hobbit in 3D at 48fps on his Epic cameras, and James Cameron is actively pursuing 60fps. Doug Trumbull is aiming for 120fps!

Panavision is indeed primarily a rental house. That's why they have a good stock of RED cameras they've bought and rent out to customers.

Graeme
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