Modern Photography

[mmurph]

Love it!  

RE: PWC  

Yeah, the models are basically treated like shit, by everyone - many photogs, agencies, MUAs, perverts, et. al.  

A good handful of mine became fast friends, although it was 100% "hands off" - I am old enough to be their father!  Plus married. Had fun pumping loud music, drinking coffee, etc.  Now they have all moved to LA (my 3 best, plus my MUA.)

A more general term here is probably: lowballers

I'll have to see what I can work up around that: slimy, low-life, blood sucking, scum bag low-baller, c*ck suckers ....

SLLBSSBLBCS


Hmm... not a great acronym .... gotta work on that ... more later

[mediumcool]

My own tragic experience, too. Happened with my second-biggest regular calendar when the marketing director, for whom I had great personal respect, handed the gig over to his PR man. Turned into my final shoot for them... My ego, the PR's ignorance and my loss. If I could but turn back the clock... I'd have a 9mm in my pocket for client-aimed use only. But then, as you age you realise that everything has to change, clients included. But at the time you don't feel so cool and detached about it...

Rob C

In any enterprise requiring creativity and skill, a healthy ego is essential, but it can get in the way. If I remember an old Richard Avedon quote correctly, he said: “ ... if I have to stand on my head in public to feed my family, I’ll do it”.

[mediumcool]

RE: PWC  

Yeah, the models are basically treated like shit, by everyone - many photogs, agencies, MUAs, perverts, et. al.  

A good handful of mine became fast friends, although it was 100% "hands off" - I am old enough to be their father!  Plus married. Had fun pumping loud music, drinking coffee, etc.  Now they have all moved to LA (my 3 best, plus my MUA.)

A more general term here is probably: lowballers

I'll have to see what I can work up around that: slimy, low-life, blood sucking, scum bag low-baller, c*ck suckers ....

SLLBSSBLBCS

Hmm... not a great acronym .... gotta work on that ... more later

Adelaide, the city I live near, has few major fashion houses, so the majority of fashion photography is in catalogues, much of which is done in the larger pop. eastern states, but there is still an *industry* of young star-struck women, some of them more realistic in their expectations. But the thought of [in many cases] older photographers circling naïve young damsels for profit and salaciousness is a bit sickening. It is probably the same everywhere in the *western* world.

[mmurph]

But the thought of [in many cases] older photographers circling naïve young damsels for profit and salaciousness is a bit sickening. It is probably the same everywhere in the *western* world.

Yes.  If you see the words "Fine Art Photography," in most internet type cases (Craigslist, Flickr, etc.), it means:

Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.

Of course the younger guys have digital cameras and their own schtick. 

I have one model I worked with who does primarily nude modelling (not for me - she was surprised that I wanted her to keep her clothes on!)

She would go to a "photo shoot" at a hot tub spa, etc. Had a boyfriend go with her always, but seems like 80% of the time the guys assumed sex was included.  She is one of the models who moved to LA - god help her, I hope she is OK. 

It is amazing how incredibly eager young women are to be "models" = stars, famous, beautiful, rich, sexy in their eyes.

I did a birthday photo shoot for 3, 15 year old girls, as a favor to the mom of the BD girl (my wifes friend.) With a make up artist, styling, wardrobes, etc. 

One of them became so obsessed with me that she talked for a year about how she was going to be my model, that she was my favorite model, she was going to become famous, etc. etc. 

On the mom's direction, I never printed, posted, or released a single image from the 100's of pics I took. It caused so much stress between the 3 about who was "my favorite", who was in front of the camera the most (apparently at one point the obsessed one locked a door or something, so the other two couldn't get back to my studio from the dressing room? Something like that.)

Anyway, it is scary, scary, scary how eager they are, how blind they are, and how easy it would be to manipulate them.  And that opportunity for manipulation exists at every level of the game, from the PWC to (almost) the highest end of the business.

And that doesn't even include the agents, agencies, photogs, etc. who merely treat the models as some sort of subhuman dog or robot, to be ordered and kicked around, then tpssed aside when they are no longer wanted.

It is in many ways a very slimy business. I always had conflicted feelings about the work.  To make matters worse for me, I have a degree in Philosophy (along with Photography), and tend to be introspective about that sort of thing.  I do consider myself a "feminist", or at least strongly in favor of equal rights and respect for all.

That was how my studio was run at least.  We were all good friends, we had fun working together, there was a bit of teasing, etc.  But I did always maintain that clear, bright line.

[mediumcool]

A friend who worked in advertising as an art director asked me to get involved in a *model agency* recently; he bragged that he had made a lot of money out of it some years back, but I was dubious because of the bullshit that has to be spread to get paying customers. We had a falling out over other matters, and I am somewhat relieved! I think I could well have been shafted too ...

[mediumcool]

Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.

I resemble this remark! But if I shave it off, rampant jowls will be there for the world to see! 

[mmurph]

I resemble this remark! But if I shave it off, rampant jowls will be there for the world to see! 

Ahh, but surely you are accomplished, and therefore it really **is** art? ;>}

Plus, scraggly is sort of close to "scrawny".  Now if you have jowls, surely you're not scrawny?

I, on the other hand, try to take photos of beautiful models with near no clothes in my studio, where I have professional equipment, or on location in urban settings. Surely you can see how different and how far superior that is?

The truth is that it all a continuum. At 53, I can't help but feel like some kind of pervert and question my motives hanging out with all of these young, vital 20ish year olds. Not just the models either - makeup artists, etc. 

The whole fashion industry is on a continuim of pretense about what it does to young women. Just look at the figures on anorexia - they are astounding! Along with things like cutting (self inflicted), etc. 

At the same time, I have loved photography since I was 8. And I remember taking some "comp card" photos of a beginning 15 year old, average model a couple years ago, with her mom there, how much I loved that creative process. So . .... We all live with our compromises, eh?

Cheers!
Michael

[Rob C]

Dear me, I never realised that other people found models so intimidating to their sense of self!

I'm as old as the hills and I would have no problem or compunction about working with nudes again. My problem is availability of said women. Well, the client to pay the model fees, more realistically. I feel no desire to work with beginners; I have worked with the best and once you've been there, there's no way back. Part of the problem is that it's not just body: without the face, it comes down to very little. And beautiful faces are not known for their ubiquity nor, for that matter, is the combination of both perfect face and figure!

I wouldn't mind working with starting girls wanting to do fashion - could quite enjoy that again - but they are as unavailable on this rock upon which I perch as are the clients! Were I to live in a capital city, then I would quite like doing model composites, something I seldom did when I was working - time meant money. What I was lucky in having, was a muse: a girl with talent, huge interest in photography/photographers/fashion magazines, drive and money behind her. Wish she were here and still twenty!

Rob C

[mediumcool]

Ahh, but surely you are accomplished, and therefore it really **is** art? ;>}

Should have truncated it to read “Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard … ”, which was all I was referring to! Have done precisely two unclad photo shoots (that was the model, not me). The best one was a vanity shoot for a lovely blond 20-year-old of Scandanavian origins; she was giving pix to her boyfriend as a birthday present. I used an Agfa Clack modified for electronic flash and Ilford XP1 (for its speed and tonal range) and made sepia prints. Best for me was a pic of Christy backlit in a window wearing a thin singlet, with my late dog enjoying a pat while standing cat-like on the windowsill. She got the negs, so I can’t reprint that one.

Plus, scraggly is sort of close to "scrawny".  Now if you have jowls, surely you're not scrawny?

Not scrawny (not for a long time) but scraggly has a connotation of ugly, which was what I intended. Jowls, and still more jowls—where do they come from?

I, on the other hand, try to take photos of beautiful models with near no clothes in my studio, where I have professional equipment, or on location in urban settings. Surely you can see how different and how far superior that is?

Ah, yes.

The truth is that it all a continuum. At 53, I can't help but feel like some kind of pervert and question my motives hanging out with all of these young, vital 20ish year olds. Not just the models either - makeup artists, etc.  

MUAs can be real sleepers. And FOC wannabes.

The whole fashion industry is on a continuim of pretense about what it does to young women. Just look at the figures on anorexia - they are astounding! Along with things like cutting (self inflicted), etc.  

Read the [ironically] gorgeous Naomi Wolfe on this.

At the same time, I have loved photography since I was 8. And I remember taking some "comp card" photos of a beginning 15 year old, average model a couple years ago, with her mom there, how much I loved that creative process. So . .... We all live with our compromises, eh?

+1

[nightfire]

Some scragly old dude, 50-65 years old, probably with a beard, who shoots b&w nudes of young women in the landscape/abandonded barns/etc. and calls it art.

New Year's resolution: to force myself to shoot less landscapes and barns 

[K.C.]

It's interesting to me how many threads there are along this same theme.

I'm share similar demographics with you guys, but I realized over a decade ago that there was no real opportunity left because there was no respect for the profession.

Had my top clients hire the AD to shoot the style I developed for them. They watched, learned and then didn't need me. None of them are in the business anymore, same thing happened to them. Clients took everything in house and fired the agencies. Half the clients lost their business to China and so they'e gone. The food chain keeps descending to the lowest common denominator, those who haven't learned yet.

I'll always shoot. I love it more than ever because I don't have to sacrifice my dignity and make others money they don't deserve. There are plenty willing to do so.

Graphic design, web development, video production, all the same story.

Avedon wouldn't last today, standing on your head stop being enough a long time ago.

[Rob C]

It's interesting to me how many threads there are along this same theme.

I'm share similar demographics with you guys, but I realized over a decade ago that there was no real opportunity left because there was no respect for the profession.

Had my top clients hire the AD to shoot the style I developed for them. They watched, learned and then didn't need me. None of them are in the business anymore, same thing happened to them. Clients took everything in house and fired the agencies. Half the clients lost their business to China and so they'e gone. The food chain keeps descending to the lowest common denominator, those who haven't learned yet.

I'll always shoot. I love it more than ever because I don't have to sacrifice my dignity and make others money they don't deserve. There are plenty willing to do so.

Graphic design, web development, video production, all the same story.

Avedon wouldn't last today, standing on your head stop being enough a long time ago.

Not so sure about that. There’s such a thing as the spin-off value of using celebs, and Avedon and a few others are (were) in that bracket.

Take a look at Pirelli: they have always used stars for their calendars, on both sides of the camera, knowing well that that alone adds a certain perceived glamour to their production each year.  Also, within the fashion world, there is a certain sense of ‘closed circle’ that keeps things moving in their own orbits.

I’m no oracle – but I think that as long as those various media last, they’ll keep doing it the way they always have. The difference is, those organs were never open to a wide supplier base, but ever exclusive.

Rob C

[mediumcool]

New Year's resolution: to force myself to shoot less landscapes and barns 

All those drafty holes!