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Nigel Johnson

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2011, 08:54:47 pm »

Billy

According to the European Canon Professional Network "The EOS C300 and C300 PL cameras feature built-in ND filters. A four-layer system is used offering three densities – 0.6 (2-stop), 1.2 (4-stop) and 1.8 (6-stop) – with ND0 being clear.". For other info see http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/canon_cinema_eos_system_explained.do and http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/news/cinema_eos.do.

Regards
Nigel
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N. Raziel

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2011, 10:30:38 pm »

Hi all (new to LL forum)!

All I can say is that we will see lot of interesting stuff in video world. Somehow I'm glad to see new Canon products, and I'm sure with their next generation models, it would be a different story...

I don't agree that the Canon 5d2 is low end machine, especially as a larger sensor, more or less all the other cameras on the market. New season of House M.D. was made exactly with 5d2.

I think that both C300 and Scarlet-X will not have success on a professional market, especially because most of large studios will use the new Sony F65, for broadcast Ikegami, and what about 3d, probably Panasonic...

Greetings and sorry for my bad English!
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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2011, 10:48:41 pm »

I don't agree that the Canon 5d2 is low end machine, especially as a larger sensor, more or less all the other cameras on the market. New season of House M.D. was made exactly with 5d2.

Not a season: only the last episode of previous season of House was shot with 5D2.

Sareesh Sudhakaran

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2011, 12:59:04 am »


What people have to appreciate is that the C300 is a video camera shooting 1920X1280 HD. It will be accepted in the documentary and TV world.

Without AF and AE, I doubt it. The form factor is wrong. The codec is a major disappointment (when compared to what the F3 is capable of). If I had to choose a Canon, what's wrong with the 1DX?

Quote
These two cameras aren't even in the same league. It's like comparing a Phase One IQ180 with a 35mm DSLR.

Michael

Oh but they are in the same league. The video and cinema industry standards are tightly integrated, unlike still-photography. Canon is aiming a full HD camera with an unacceptable codec (at 8-bit 422) at $20K - to the cinema crowd! That is preposterous. I just have a feeling that Canon has something else up their sleeve. At least in the video world, this camera is very un-canon like. It can't even AF its own lenses, but Red can!

Also, the Scarlet is a replacement to the Red One - but what about Red's commitment to "obsolescence obsolete"? A basic Scarlet set up and ready to shoot (without lenses) is $20K. A full-fledged cinema production can afford better, and an indie production cannot afford these rates, even renting (if history is any indicator).

Neither the Scarlet nor the C300 look nearly as good as the F3 or SI-2K for the micro-budget indie cinema crowd. They don't need 4K, or pseudo-4K. And neither of these cameras look as good as the Alexa or Epic for the low-budget indie crowd and high-budget Hollywood crowd.
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bcooter

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2011, 02:50:07 am »

Word on the street has it that the powers that be in movie and TV land met with camera makers on ways to save money.

If a 5d2 will work and save them millions a year in production, with lower wattage, smaller crews, higher iso, faster post production, editing, grading, effects, they'll force it.

If the Scarlet does it they'll go that way also.

Hollywood is in it for the money and the savings in production, whether it's from a Scarlet, an Epic a 5d2 or this new Canon multiplied times hundreds if not thousands of productions is big money.

You have to realize that the days of blockbuster and $25 rental fees are gone, now it's all you can eat streaming and Hollywood feels that pinch.

Soon you'll see google TV going after the cable and satellite business and pay for view. Large margins get smaller with every change in technology, plus the economy doesn't help matters.

Gone are the days that everyone buys the latest lcd screen for the den, (look at Sony's last few quarters of red ink). 

Regardless of  California's incentive there is ton's of runaway production to right to work states to lower crew costs and I think most people would be very surprised that even on large budget production, how tightly every crew member, actor, extra, outside supplier is negotiated.

For some there still is gold in Hollywood, but it's not on the studio floor.

So if anyone thinks that every part of production is not scrutinized there not looking at it in a business sense.

We all hear the stories of television "still" advertising shooting 15 show campaigns in a day and lately I've seen more and more movie posters that look to me like retouched screen grabs from the motion imagery.

So, bottom line is the bottom line and if the Scarlet performs and shoots a close to 5k still file while shooting 4:4:4 high def motion then that will be the camera.  No Hollywood probably won't dictate that a DP use a specific brand, but they will dictate the bottom line and the production company will have to find a way to get there.

It's the same with advertising.  My clients do care if a file is useable in any media, they don't care what the camera costs as long as I don't go over that bottom line.  If I want to "donate" $200,000 in cameras to the project there fine with that, if I can do it with $40,000, or even $6,000 worth of cameras and meet their objectives they're fine with that also.

I personally think this new Canon falls in never never land.  It's not an Alexa, not even a RED, it's a prosumer camera with expensive lenses. 

As Michael said it's not going to flood the rental market, it's price vs. performance doesn't jive with the new economy.

The Scarlet does, the next 5d might even be closer.

IMO

BC


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fredjeang

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2011, 04:20:49 am »

snip... it's price vs. performance doesn't jive with the new economy.

The Scarlet does, the next 5d might even be closer.

IMO

BC


That's something I hardly read in those discussions, and I'm quite surprise. Very few people are talking about the economy reality and it's linked to everything, gear included.

Is it taboo, or what?

It's like it doesn't exist and almost only Cooter is pointing that fact over and over again.

I don't get it. Either some are living in another planet or maybe I am living in another galaxy...but I can say this:

I live in a wealphy district of Madrid. Since a few years, and it's growing at the speed of light, when supermarkets close their doors, you see many families searching food in the garbages. Families that do not look homeless, and there are a lot. More and more people are begging in the street, it's to a point that I can't go to have my morning coffee without at least 2 people asking for money, tabacco...and the bar is just in front of the house.

I'm working more than before and I'm payed less. More exactly, if I want the same money as before I have to work more. And with the same money I do less.

Models, stylists etc...are earning less, and even models with international reputation. Brands and even luxury brands are not blowing the money away on any wim project like before. They cut in all parts.

6 months ago, I had an interesting conversation with an international model, married with a Real Madrid football team player: she told me that the agent is putting pressure like: "if you don't take this at that price X is ready to do it"...you know, this is the real world.

And not only that. We have to know more and being more multitask or you work less.

And some very good photographers with reputation are having hard time to maitain their crews and in a lot of cases they lost many clients in favor of younger and cheaper pros.

I read here or there, that Hollywood couldn't care less about budget, like if all was unlimited like years ago and that they don't give a bloody damn about costs because it's the Midas king of imagery. I doubt it honestly in most of the cases. The reality here is very different. Here I mean in Europe, and Europe is not that much different from the USA.

I don't know any client or prod house that is not watching carefully now the costs of production and post-production.

So to conclude, I don't think that we can talk about equipment now without this parameter in mind.


If we have to work more, faster, and being more multiutasks, we are doing it unfortunatly with equipment, and specially in the PP area, that are designed for another time. A time where money was not an issue, a time where 50 people where doing what 5 are doiung now. We went from an extreme to another and it will takes time before the center will be reached.

That is why it is so crucial we end to have softwares more intuitive, faster and efficient. Same as cameras etc...Because all the extra cost of long and long hours of editing the old way is not rewarded economically.

As BC said, those days are gone when _





 


« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 04:50:33 am by fredjeang »
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bcooter

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2011, 06:08:29 am »

I'm not a doom and gloom guy and I know this biz has always been hard.

It's an elective and i knew after about 15 hours in this business that it wasn't going to be easy at any level.

Still, this is a different economy at a different time.

I firmly believe it things were cranking like in 2007 nobody would be talking about digital cinema, convergence and the I-pad, heck any form of digital publishing would be limited to forums like this and social media would be e-mail, not facebook, twitter, whatever.

So, with this in mind I'm not complaining i just know that things are not the way they were, no reason to worry about the past, just go forward.

Now when it comes to editorial, I can cut, but I can't stay up 4 nights a week until 4 am to hit deadlines and changes.  I can but my business will suffer as I wear a lot of hats and have a lot to do, from paying gigs to personal work.

So, once again I started shopping as we have 8 videos in house.  For the price it was just more effective to build a new suite, hire a good editor at a fair price and get to work.

Now, our business is growing, we're going to add more people and probably add more space when I find that special deal for that perfect place.

We won't be only photographers, or film makers, or effects, editorial, conceptualists, camera operators, stylists, designers . . . we do it all because as of today we are doing it all.

But Fred like you, were working, though working harder than ever.

So what do you do?   Look back or go forward?

I prefer to go forward and am more creatively excited than ever on the projects we're producing.

But one thing is clear.  1999, 2007, or today nobody in Hollywood threw money around like it was water.   I know a lot about the real world through my contacts and I know a fair amount about the system and rich folk don't get rich by giving it away.

So when you hear about 400 million dollar blockbusters, remember about 1/2 of that is advertising, a lot is in pre and post production, most of it is spread around multiple producers that get the funding, so by the time they hit the streets or the studio, the budgets are tight.

Always have been.

Now how does this relate to cameras?  Well, in my mind the Scarlet is the good middle ground, so we placed our order today, my two RED ones are still cranking and for stills, I have my Canons, Nikons, Leica, Contax with Phase backs and might go to another canon, maybe the 1dx, though not for video.

DP's hired by the week, day or month, might go for the Alexa because it's a rental and they don't think that comes out of their pocket, though in reality the budget is the budget and it always comes out of somebody's pocket.

No client or head of a production company walks down the hallway and asks how much were the camera and lens rentals.  They just ask what's the number we're spending to shoot it?

Actually yesterday when we heard the Canon news we got on the list, then read the specs and promptly got off the list and called our guy at RED.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 06:30:58 am by bcooter »
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fredjeang

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #47 on: November 05, 2011, 07:27:33 am »

Yes. Folks do not get rich by giving it away.

That's true.

But I do not know what was the panorama in the US 6 or so years ago, but I remember when I was working with advertising agencies, everybody was really throwing money from the windows.
I remember 10 or more creatives earning 5000 bucks a months absolutly useless, not doing anything and with inflated egos only beatable by a Stalin or a Berlusconi, because the real creatives and the ones that where working where always the same.

Have you ever seen those construction workers on a road. Ten people are watching and 2 are digging. Something like that.

Each time there was a new gear released, it was immediatly bought. I remember the huge rentals bills for even average agencies that wanted to be fashion and where spending fortunes in design, costly webpages, luxury hotels...all those excess sunk.

Now, I'm also feeling that it is a different exciting time and I'm moving forward with enthousiasm.

I even think that the crisis is putting things in order and something really interesting is coming.

As always in messy transitions, the ones who look backward will probaly sink and the ones who look forward will prosper.

In fact, I've never enjoyed as much as now.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 07:41:54 am by fredjeang »
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rainer_v

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #48 on: November 05, 2011, 08:30:19 am »

That's something I hardly read in those discussions, and I'm quite surprise. Very few people are talking about the economy reality and it's linked to everything, gear included.

Is it taboo, or what?

It's like it doesn't exist and almost only Cooter is pointing that fact over and over again.

I don't get it. Either some are living in another planet or maybe I am living in another galaxy...but I can say this:

I live in a wealphy district of Madrid. Since a few years, and it's growing at the speed of light, when supermarkets close their doors, you see many families searching food in the garbages. Families that do not look homeless, and there are a lot. More and more people are begging in the street, it's to a point that I can't go to have my morning coffee without at least 2 people asking for money, tabacco...and the bar is just in front of the house.

I'm working more than before and I'm payed less. More exactly, if I want the same money as before I have to work more. And with the same money I do less.

Models, stylists etc...are earning less, and even models with international reputation. Brands and even luxury brands are not blowing the money away on any wim project like before. They cut in all parts.

6 months ago, I had an interesting conversation with an international model, married with a Real Madrid football team player: she told me that the agent is putting pressure like: "if you don't take this at that price X is ready to do it"...you know, this is the real world.

And not only that. We have to know more and being more multitask or you work less.

And some very good photographers with reputation are having hard time to maitain their crews and in a lot of cases they lost many clients in favor of younger and cheaper pros.

I read here or there, that Hollywood couldn't care less about budget, like if all was unlimited like years ago and that they don't give a bloody damn about costs because it's the Midas king of imagery. I doubt it honestly in most of the cases. The reality here is very different. Here I mean in Europe, and Europe is not that much different from the USA.

I don't know any client or prod house that is not watching carefully now the costs of production and post-production.

So to conclude, I don't think that we can talk about equipment now without this parameter in mind.


If we have to work more, faster, and being more multiutasks, we are doing it unfortunatly with equipment, and specially in the PP area, that are designed for another time. A time where money was not an issue, a time where 50 people where doing what 5 are doiung now. We went from an extreme to another and it will takes time before the center will be reached.

That is why it is so crucial we end to have softwares more intuitive, faster and efficient. Same as cameras etc...Because all the extra cost of long and long hours of editing the old way is not rewarded economically.

As BC said, those days are gone when _





 



fred, although in general you are right that the times of endless budgets are over, there still exists clients who are willed to pay a lot for getting the best they can get.

and the situation in spain isnt as it is in greece, but also not as in rest of europe or in us.i live with my famliy in the south of spain ( my wife is spanish ) meanwhile  my office is in germany and i can tell you the situation in spain's situation  is reminding me more and more like in the third world ( as was the behavor in the last 15 years  to throw out money for incredible crazy things as/ and to build 2 million houses too much which are all empty now, with a very corrupt and also very ineffective government, fiscal authorities. it   
was a bonanza as i havent seen it nowhere and which reminds to brazil in the 70s. the price therefor will have to be paid and thats what you describe. we in andalucia have over 60% unemployd young people between 17 and 25 years old, search a develloped country with similar numbers, even greece is far better.
thats not europe, and hopefully as well not the future of europe. situation in germany or in france and in many other countries is quite different, so is the economy. lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 09:12:20 am by rainer_v »
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feppe

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2011, 08:59:47 am »

You have to realize that the days of blockbuster and $25 rental fees are gone, now it's all you can eat streaming and Hollywood feels that pinch.

Soon you'll see google TV going after the cable and satellite business and pay for view. Large margins get smaller with every change in technology, plus the economy doesn't help matters.

Don't believe everything the MPAA is telling you about piracy killing the movie industry. 2009 was Hollywood's best year financially, and 2010 was the second. This result in a downturn economy.

feppe

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2011, 09:25:07 am »

lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.

Inability of northern Europe to manage the profligacy of southern Europe? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? We are not the daddy with the money to come to the rescue when their prodigal son gets out of hand.

It's like someone went on a years-long spending spree racking up credit card debts, and when the credit card company comes to claim their money, they'll just tell them to ask the people down the street - they are the ones with the money and prudency.

On the other hand, that's exactly seems to be the expectation, so the concept is not so ridiculous to politicians.

fredjeang

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2011, 09:34:01 am »

fred, although in general you are right that the times of endless budgets are over, there still exists clients who are willed to pay a lot for getting the best they can get.

and the situation in spain isnt as it is in greece, but also not as in rest of europe or in us.i live with my famliy in the south of spain ( my wife is spanish ) meanwhile  my office is in germany and i can tell you the situation in spain's situation  is reminding me more and more like in the third world ( as was the behavor in the last 15 years  to throw out money for incredible crazy things as/ and to build 2 million houses too much which are all empty now, with a very corrupt and also very ineffective government, fiscal authorities. it  
was a bonanza as i havent seen it nowhere and which reminds to brazil in the 70s. the price therefor will have to be paid and thats what you describe. we in andalucia have over 60% unemployd young people between 17 and 25 years old, search a develloped country with similar numbers, even greece is far better.
thats not europe, and hopefully as well not the future of europe. situation in germany or in france and in many other countries is quite different, so is the economy. lets hope that the south european disaster and the unability of the north to manage it adequately will not lead allover to similar results than i see in spain, but i doubt that this will happen.

You're absolutly right.
Spain lived way above it real level and the economy was for the most part speculative. I totally agree: this is NOT europe, it's the mediteranean mess. So the consequences of the crisis are way more serious in Spain. Absolutly.
This is far from being France, England or Germany.
At the same time, the tendecy remains truth, with more or less extreme situations according to where you live. But when I call collegues in Paris, they all say that they have to work more for less, that production and post budgets are not as easy to obtain as before and generally people are not willing to risk etc...I can tell you that the overall message I get from France is rather negative.
Not as bad as Spain, no, but overall negative and pessimistic. The german economy is not growing a lot either. Numbers aren't very high. Here we are almost in recession, and we will be, while in Germany the economy will grow slower as expected.

But yeah, the southern mess is well...what you describe. Pathetic, and this country deserves what is happening. And the irony is that there are very good professionals in Spain, but they just don't understand how to make it work. I still asking myself why the hell I'm staying in Madrid. The only answer is that I became easy.

Sun, gorgeous and easy girls in bikinis and cool life with the german money are not making economy. Yes, Spain reminds me of Brazil in many aspects.

 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 10:45:30 am by fredjeang »
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon and Sony suffer on inconsistent resolution descriptions
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2011, 01:58:05 pm »

Thanks for putting the numbers on the table!

Canon (like Sony) is suffering a bit in forum debates over resolution, by describing its video sensor resolution in the traditional video way of counting pixels that have full RGB information, while RED is using the "digital still camera" style of counting each single-color photosite in its Bayer CFA sensors. So in truth, the Scarlet-X's "4K" is very close to Canon's "1080p" in final video resolution.  Sony's 1080p digital cine-cameras are close too, though I believe Sony's higher level cine-camera sensors have each HD format output pixel coming from a different arrangement of photosites, arranged something like
RGB
RGB
with vertical binning in each color.

The resolution differences will be particularly small in the final digital projection in cinemas, which for now is likely to be done with a [Sony] 2K projector, and 2K with all three colors at each pixel is enough for what  these sensors are offering, until you get to RED's more expensive models with "5K" video output.


P. S. The "video DSLR" than Canon hinted at, with 36x24mm sensor for stills but with its video output using a 20% width crop of that for its 4K output, seems to have a pixel count that fits the EOS-1Dx specs. So maybe it will use the same basic sensor, with different output wiring and processing. Maybe keeping the pixel count at a level that works well for 4K video output (or aggregating into 1920x1080 full color pixels) was a design constraint for this latest Canon 36x24mm sensor.

Hi BJL

It is my understanding that the Canon C 300 is different to RED.

Canon use 4 sensor pixels to generate one full colour site. This gives high colour accuracy but lower resolution.

RED use each pixel for resolution and use Demosaicing for colour to generate a 1 to 1 pixel to colour site. This gives double the resolution but poorer colour fidelity.

I do not know the data rates of each camera exactly but if Canon are close or better than RED on data rate (compressed data flow) then the Canon will have the edge on compression losses if all things were equal since the RED RAW would be trying to do four times the work to get double the resolution. I am sure RED will be able to say what their rate is and how efficient their compression is. In any case each has it's trade offs. One more obvious difference is the RED uses 444 and the Canon uses 422.

I suspect the RED will look sharper but the Canon will still generate great Cinema since they have no Demosaicing issues.

I agree with you, I think people are being hard on the Canon. It may be better than they relise as they are thinking of lower performing 2K solutions. The Canon sensor does capture 4K it just puts colour first and becomes 2K in the most effective way without any loss. That I think is a great solution and for some Pro work flows will be what some people will want.

If you record a drum sound 24bits will give you a ample dynamic recording window to capture the lowest to the highest sound. To broadcast that sound you only need a 16bit system. It will only sound better on a 24bit system because the converters are higher spec, not because your ears need the dynamics. I think Canon have created the same system. It captures lots of information and converts into an efficient broadcast medium.

I am not so sure we NEED 4K. If the work flow becomes cheap enough in future we will all use it no doubt but we may not NEED it. Cinema is about telling a story. The human eye can be distracted by detail, poor colour or excessive noise. I think Canon have created a great product and it will work for those that are not chasing inaccurate line detail at the expense of colour.

For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR. Throw in F8 auto focus and some bird photogs will buy it too. I wonder if Canon are trying to kill two bird's with one stone ... LOL
« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 02:07:20 pm by Bernard ODonovan »
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2011, 03:24:49 pm »

>>>>For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR.>>>>

Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?

About the 300C: I can only say - I have taken a look at the 300C sample films on Vimeo now with 1080p direct out from my computer to my 50 " Pana Plasma (ICC calibrated) and this is looking darn good. Especially all the available light stuff is amazing, very smooth, very lively -I would say very much like 35mm film, if this is what many are looking after.
I do videos with my converted 5D2 (antialiasing and UV/IR Cut removed)using our Zeiss Superrotators and some more Zeiss Contax glass with it , but this 300C is a whole different quality.

>>>>>RED use each pixel for resolution and use Demosaicing for colour to generate a 1 to 1 pixel to colour site. This gives double the resolution but poorer colour fidelity.
I do not know the data rates of each camera exactly but if Canon are close or better than RED on data rate (compressed data flow) then the Canon will have the edge on compression losses if all things were equal since the RED RAW would be trying to do four times the work to get double the resolution<<<<<<

The data from the 300C looks very clean and noisefree, a bit like the Sigma SD1 compared to a bayer scheme output. I still think this idea is pretty clever, as long as there is no real peripheral chain supporting 4K for a broad usage this approach may be the best compromise. And those who want real 4 K for Movie productions will probably not use this camera anyway.

Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2011, 04:02:01 pm »

>>>>For Canon to pull the same 4 to 1 stunt with a 4K camera will need approx 32 Megapixels. I have heard lots of rumors about a 32 Megapixel sensor. If they launch it inside a full frame DSLR at 80 % then that's a 40 Mega Pixel DSLR.>>>>

Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?


I don't think that it's going to be better than the 300C, that just wouldn't make sense for the product to be that expensive and Canon clearly is emphasizing the 300C as their top video camera.  The 1 Series Cinema DSLR can't even use the new cinema zoom lenses since the 4k video is APS-H and those only cover Super35/APS-C. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 30-40 megapixel camera, but the sensor is probably going to be some sort of compromise between still and video and therefore not quite as good as the C300 which was built for video from the ground up.

Maybe what Canon is doing is setting the stage for the "5D III" down the road. If they put all the video features in the 1D Cinema, then they can make the video in the 5D III a more stripped down basic feature, even if it had the same high resolution sensor. That would force all the video SLR guys to move up to the 1D Cinema rather than buying a cheaper 5D III.
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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2011, 04:25:13 pm »

We can talk about which camera is better, or not until the sun melts, but the bottom line is Canon made a camera that they aimed at the Alexa as if RED didn't exist.

You know, people talk about Mr. Jannard as if he's "just" a salesman and he is a very good salesman, but he has built a following around his company that is beyond loyal.

He's also built a culture in Hollywood that no camera company has done and no new camera company would ever contemplate.  

How many camera companies own a Hollywood studio that anyone can walk into and maybe that doesn't matter to the most end users, but it does matter when you see the investment you have some culture that RED will be around for a long time and in todays financial world none are surprised when we here of another big brand disappear.

I think Mr. Jannard is the Steve Jobs of the camera world, because here we have one of the world's wealthiest men, talking to grunts like us directly.

Red may miss deadlines, sometimes be vague, prior to the Scarlet have the strangest sales system ever devised, but they do communicate from the top to the bottom and they have listened to their user base, not just a few select individuals.

I'm not an engineer and don't care if a file is made from 4 pixels or one, I just know the RED file for me is pretty.  It's that simple and we've made stills from it that are pretty . . . it's that simple.

I'm not selling RED because I pay retail, though I know the benefit of raw when shooting multiple cams in fast settings with multiple setups  

Sure we set the cameras up to look good, but if we're 400 degrees off on kelvin, or one monitor doesn't exactly match the other, we don't worry because RED CineX works fast in post and is easy to set color to match.  Like Chris says if you used C-1, you can use Red Cine X with about 30 minutes of learning curve.

Last week's announcements floored me.   I think all of us kind of thought Canon would come out with a raw shooting, 4k, autofocus camera with it's own version of a color grading suite, for half the price of the RED, that would be on the shelves in weeks.  In other words a RED killer.

Instead RED came out with a Canon mount, autofocus camera, with upgrades to it's color grading suite for less price than the Canon that will be on sale in weeks.  In other words a Canon Killer.

As a disclaimer I'll admit I'm biased because I love the RED file and both my ghetto RED One's have been bullet proof around the world, in rain, freezing cold, 100F heat and 100% humidity.

They're not perfect but they've made me money and opened up a whole new world of what we can creatively produce.

IMO

BC

On another note, I don't want noise free smooth, I want useable film like noise.

I think the 5d2 is too smooth and color is difficult and it doesn't look like video it just looks different than Canons still file.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/rundsmc.jpg

« Last Edit: November 05, 2011, 04:46:36 pm by bcooter »
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2011, 04:46:54 pm »

Now this makes sense to me ! The only question which derives from that theory is how in the world do they want to get a pricing model from this ?
The Hardware for such a DSLR would need to be more advanced thus more expensive than the 300C - means a DSLR body priced over 20000 $ ?

The Canon EOS C 300 has an internal cooling system and remains splash resistant. Pro Users will also expect it not to overheat. Pre release users have confirmed performance in desert heat.

An EOS DSLR is primarily a still Cam, by adding video and the ''C'' badge they may still limit it in some ways. They already mention a different compression will be used and it is unlikely they will allow it to do more than 29m 59sec recording as that would add a lump to the cost as it would then be a pro video Cam in the legal sense for EURO regulations.

I suspect other subtle differences and equally it will take advantage of the latest processing power the photo division can muster. It is obvious that there are two different teams in Canon and the guy behind the 5D2 mentions having to create his own heat in Canon to get video in a DSLR accepted as an R&D need. Canon R&D got the message ... LOL

I suspect what ever they make it will be around the price of the new 1D X. I note the ''C'' DSLR had no EOS 1 logo. This could become the EOS 3 C.

Incidentally, I think they call the ''Canon EOS C 300'' a ''300'' as the Cinema lenses have a 300 degree focus throw.

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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2011, 05:00:35 pm »

About the 300C: I can only say - I have taken a look at the 300C sample films on Vimeo now with 1080p direct out from my computer to my 50 " Pana Plasma (ICC calibrated) and this is looking darn good. Especially all the available light stuff is amazing, very smooth, very lively -I would say very much like 35mm film, if this is what many are looking after.
I do videos with my converted 5D2 (antialiasing and UV/IR Cut removed)using our Zeiss Superrotators and some more Zeiss Contax glass with it , but this 300C is a whole different quality.

Exactly. This is what most people are missing. How the end user will view the product. Film was an analog process and all such processes needed to be of high standard as second and third gen copies would suffer loss of detail. Digital Video and Digital Cinema does not have to equal exposed 35mm Cine Film, it has to satisfy the uses at the point of consumption. If the new Canon can look good on a big home screen and some say it looked great at the Canon event in Hollywood, then 4K will be useless for those that view at 2K or accept 2K where 4K could be used. It makes no sense to loose colour fidelity shooting for 4K and then drop the gain in resolution and let users consume 2K. Most content will not need to be archived. Taste and Fashion moves on and who cares that old 4K can be displayed to the masses 10 year later when they no longer want to view it. If the content was that great then 2K will be fine. Everyone loves a grainy black and white, let things age, don't suffer uneeded resolution now if you can shoot better 2K.

Canon know that some will still want 4K so for the wannabe market the new EOS ''?'' C makes sense. As one sensor designer said, numbers sell camera's not image quality.

I do not doubt Canon will do full Pro 4K, it is in their road map too.
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Bernard ODonovan

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2011, 06:31:05 pm »


Sony want to be the number 1 sensor maker of the world

Hollywood will find this interesting too:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fegami.blog.so-net.ne.jp%2F2011-10-28

Back to the Canon, their video / cinema marketing team have not mentioned if the pixels on the new C 300 are with gapless micro lens or on the same thin wafer (which also improves signal to noise) as the new 1D X sensor. I hope it is at the price they are asking...
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Tim Jones

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Re: Canon strikes back...
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2011, 07:18:39 pm »

 I had to laugh when i read bcooters post about Hollywood as i drove past major Hollywood production down my street in Portland.
they are shooting a network series here called grimm . Guys running  around with Alexias all over the place.
  The rentals houses here are buying Epics and Alexias as fast as they can get them.
Do they shoot anything in Hollywood anymore?
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