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Author Topic: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute  (Read 64285 times)

Fritzer

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2011, 02:35:59 pm »


-Why should we still have to put-up with designs that where made basically a century ago? when electronics gives almnost any kind of possibilities for designers to be creative to a point that wasn't thinkable before.

I kind of agree, but then again, what are you looking for in camera design ?
In those one hundred years, many designs have been developed and used .
Personally, I'm surprised life view and EVFs are not more advanced in still/hybrid cameras .

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-why should we still have to stand things like matte-boxes and all the zacuto's artillery in 2011 that make looks the camera like a huge and hugly mecano?
-why this plague of micro fragile conectors in still camera devices?

Space requirements and laws of physics ?


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-Why it still seems so painfull to have a device that works both for still and motion imagery so the investment is still doubled.
-Why we are still talking after all those years of softwares developpement about having to get a pentagon suite to color grade, and that the only exciting and "revolutiuonary" thing that appeared in the last decades was something called final cut pro x that is not ready yet and full of bugs.

No idea .. ;)

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-why can't we zoom and focus any modern motion lens with our cell-phones? do timelapse with our cell-phones but yes, having some fancy gadgeteries like the electronic clap on the I.phone and those, for sure, come at the speed of light, like any useless thing.

Gadgets and (i)Apps hurt the development of proper software and accessories to a large degree, imho .
Creates a big gap between the usable, modular stuff you get for film (super expensive and for expert users) and quick & dirty, and proprietary, solutions .
It's the iPhone/iPad approach : simple sells, why try harder ?

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-why can't we shoot 24 fps 12MP (and I'm not even talking about Raw) image sequence for more than 2 sec and are still stucked into ridiculous buffer stuff, space limitations, mess of more and more exotic codecs, menus more complicated that a 747 cockpit, still softwares that are just doing still and motion softwares that are doing still the painfull way, new formats or codecs like this Canon will have that nothing will read, as always, so we'll need to chase more third-party stuff, more devices, more micro program and latest versions so we buy.
-why do we still have to transcode in 2011?

-why...etc...

Because the reality, is instead of having simplified and unified stuff, it's always more and more and more things to add.

I think this industry, Canon included, deserves a real kick in the ass by a new player. And hope it will be some brand like Red One.

Why do I still carry chargers, cables and adapters that take up as much space as my laptop and small camera kit combined ?
Same thing .
As for Red - let me see if there's room for another set of cables, chargers, batteries .... ;)


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Below: how many years separate those 4 cameras?

Why can't I buy an FF DSLR the size of a Nikon FM2, and increase functionality with moduls, like a battery grip sized thing improving performance and adding features ?
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2011, 02:37:10 pm »


I don't like the pictures I take with my Nikon much anymore, I prefer those that come out of my iPhone. I'm not joking. On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Edmund

I asume that you are looking for a more spontanious experience and way of expression. The D3 is a beast for sports, low-light and the one with the bigger sensor, don't remember the label x, or s, almost an MF in a dslr package. But those are cameras made to be efficient under the vastest range of situations and have the widest range of possible optics, some of them extremes.

If you're paid to cover a sport or political event, you can't miss the shots. And sometimes it means to be able to have a printable result at 24000isos, an ultra reliable auto-focus.

In fact, just look at the social and wars reportage made with Leicas M and there is no doubt that those pictures are different, they smell different.

The irony is that many many people over the internet are amazed for ex by extreme low-light capabilities and most of them will never have the real need for it, but the Leica guy doesn't want that beautifull warm scene in low-light to appears like if it was in bright sunshine under the tropics with grain added in post...he-she wants the low-light scene to be what it is: low-light!

So really, when a camera claims usable low-light at 24000, it means clean look at 6400, but it doesn't mean good pics.

I'm also seeing the same, very "limited" gear tend to help producing better pics, because they force you to be where you want to be: on the command. 

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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #162 on: October 20, 2011, 02:56:07 pm »

I kind of agree, but then again, what are you looking for in camera design ?
In those one hundred years, many designs have been developed and used .
Personally, I'm surprised life view and EVFs are not more advanced in still/hybrid cameras .


But they where developped with and for film. Now we are free of that, the tech allows miniaturization, storage, usability etc etc...that where not even thinkable 15 years ago.

Look at the gh2 for ex. I was a big fan of the Canon 1DMK4 but when I got the gh2, it's almost 1/4 the size of the canon, and it's electronic is way more advanced. In 1/4 the size of a traditional camera, engineers are able to put amost any crazy electronic they could think of, and that's going to increase.
Imagine what they could, if they wanted, put into a size of an MF gear, wich I think is the perfect size for a combocam...we'd have proper conectors like in the Alexa instead of those 3' jacks and fragile hmi ports. Big, really big LV screen, rock solid that you coud orientate the way you want, in-board steady-cam, big storage, much more processors, in-board nd filters, a proper handle integrated in the design, free of this EVF but only a big sreen that would work like an i.pad, an integrated radio trigger (why not?, why having to put a device on the shoe? because there is a shoe...), inboard internet connection etc etc...the list is unlimited. And that's not 10 years tech ahead for the most part of it. The tendency is going that way hoppefully.

I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:02:38 pm by fredjeang »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #163 on: October 20, 2011, 04:05:15 pm »

I asume that you are looking for a more spontanious experience and way of expression. The D3 is a beast for sports, low-light and the one with the bigger sensor, don't remember the label x, or s, almost an MF in a dslr package. But those are cameras made to be efficient under the vastest range of situations and have the widest range of possible optics, some of them extremes.


Fred,

I have that one, the x. Incredible detail.
The iPhone somehow has a warm, lived-in  look to its images.
I suspect that I also hold it fairly low (waist level) which tends to improve the look of images, maybe because it is close to what we remember of our world as children.

Edmund
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Gigi

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #164 on: October 20, 2011, 05:14:19 pm »

On the other hand I've almost never seen the Nikon miss a shot.

Can you see a camera miss a shot? Now, that would be special. :)
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Geoff

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #165 on: October 20, 2011, 05:30:47 pm »

Can you see a camera miss a shot? Now, that would be special. :)
I've seen a cell phone that missed a ...call (because of a shot) :D Regards, Theodoros. www.fotometria.gr
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hjulenissen

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2011, 02:42:05 pm »

I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.
I think that this will happen in cell-phone or cell-phone-like hardware. The competition is fierce, the manufacturers make really large number of units, and each new generation offers significant development. And the software/ui part can be changed/extended by 3rd parties.

"pro" photographers and "pro" photography manufacturers will be dragged along, kicking and screaming until they realize that cheap hardware actually makes it more fun and productive to do photography. Wasnt this (sort of) what happened when AF, zoom and other things we take for granted were introduced?

-h
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Fritzer

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2011, 04:05:19 pm »


Look at the gh2 for ex. I was a big fan of the Canon 1DMK4 but when I got the gh2, it's almost 1/4 the size of the canon, and it's electronic is way more advanced. In 1/4 the size of a traditional camera, engineers are able to put amost any crazy electronic they could think of, and that's going to increase.
Imagine what they could, if they wanted, put into a size of an MF gear, wich I think is the perfect size for a combocam  .......

And that's not 10 years tech ahead for the most part of it.

I agree with you for the most part, however : your dream camera - one I'd love to get - is likely to be way out of reach for the majority of pro beginners, and maybe of most working pros too . That's 100-200k for a complete system, I'd guess .
Also, hardly anyone would need it.
Why not simply take what exists a few steps further, with improved software and accessories and added features ?

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I think this camera industry needs a Steve Jobs, someone ready to break patterns and bring powerfull usable and well designed cameras. The tech is there, we just need a visionary or a company that has the b....cks to break what's there for century and really smell like an old scotish abandonned castle to be honest.

Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
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Erick Boileau

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #168 on: October 22, 2011, 04:25:05 pm »

Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
you find Bill Gates and Microsoft very open ?
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2011, 04:27:08 pm »

We already have the camera Mac, or rather the Lisa: It's RED One.
Scarlet would be the Mac 512K.

Scarlet is defined as portable, modular, shoots Raw only, stills and video at 16mm quality, EVF. The ideal student camera and capable of launching a whole cottage industry of film-making similar to that of Mac desktop publishing. I think the 5DII is like the Apple II when it was running Visicalc: Irreplaceable when there was no competition but headed for the trashheap of history.

Edmund

I agree with you for the most part, however : your dream camera - one I'd love to get - is likely to be way out of reach for the majority of pro beginners, and maybe of most working pros too . That's 100-200k for a complete system, I'd guess .
Also, hardly anyone would need it.
Why not simply take what exists a few steps further, with improved software and accessories and added features ?

Here I disagree; a Steve Jobs is the last thing I'm hoping for .
Proprietary software and hardware, closed systems , deliberately breaking compatibility, lowest common denominator tech, no user customization below the surface - smells old and dusty to me . ;)

I'd take a bunch of inspired engineers and cut out the middle management types, who loose it all in their meetings .
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stevesanacore

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2011, 03:57:25 am »

snip

As we are in a MF forum, what all that has to do with MF ? well, it has to do in the sense that MF players are IMO in front of a delicate and critical choice today: or, keeping alive the tradition, what's already there, for a bunch of collectionists and a few high-end applications; or...changing their minds and start to get involved into convergence and different designs keeping modularity.

MF manufacturers can change everything is they would just work on a 645 CMOS sensor with real live view and low noise - at a competitive price point. I can understand good optics will always be costly - on the level of the Zeiss CP2 and Leica S2 lenses. But I do not understand why the MF bodies should cost so much. If the IQ160 or Hasselblad equivalent was $10k, I think we would see a landslide of photographers moving back to MF systems. Back in the old film days (70-80s) almost everyone I knew shot with Hasselblads, (along with many other systems of course), because they were the standard of the industry for advertising and weddings. The only reason that has changed is because of the cost is too high, and professionals just can't justify it. Sure there are many Phase One's and Hasse's being used, but I'll bet nothing like it used to be. Look how many people, (me included), are expecting a 36MP Canon body and are willing to pay at least $8k for it. I'll be they would sell more of those in the first week than Phase One or Hasse sell in a year or two. You can buy a Fiat 500 or Mini for less than a decent MF camera. Maybe someone can do the math from camera prices back in the 80's and see the relationship between a Nikon F5 body and a Hasselblad 500c/m and compare it to today?

It's too bad Jim Jannard is too busy with movie cameras to put his efforts into MF. An 80mp 645 CMOS sensor in a mirror-less camera body is all we need to get started.

IMO
 




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Erick Boileau

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2011, 04:04:08 am »

MF manufacturers can change everything is they would just work on a 645 CMOS sensor with real live view and low noise - at a competitive price point
a FF MF 40 or 50 mp   with CMOS and liveview (x 10) @ 10K will be a killer
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2011, 04:10:38 am »

a FF MF 40 or 50 mp   with CMOS and liveview (x 10) @ 10K will be a killer

The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

As of now, from a macro economic standpoint, it seems fair to say that MFDB manufacturers serve the market poorly since they are unable/unwilling to provide solutions at a price point more than a few tenths of % of the potentially interested photographers can afford.

Having it heard from them, I know that Pentax sees the lack of live view on the 645D as a regrettable shortcoming. Going for a proven Kodak sensor for a first generation D camera was reasonable, but considering the amazingly positive reactions and business success of the 645D, I wouldn't be surprised if their next sensor were something new. Pure speculation on my part through.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 04:15:47 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Erick Boileau

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2011, 04:18:13 am »

The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

As of now, from a macro economic standpoint, it seems fair to say that MFDB manufacturers serve the market poorly since they are unable/unwilling to provide solutions at a price point more than a few tenths of % of the photographers can afford.

Having it heard from them, I know that Pentax sees the lack of live view on the 645D as a regrettable shortcoming. Going for a proven Kodak sensor for a first generation D camera was reasonable, but considering the amazingly positive reactions and business success of the 645D, I wouldn't be surprised if their next sensor were something new. Pure speculation on my part through.

Cheers,
Bernard
yes a Pentax 645D + 70mm  cost 10.000 including tax, maybe a Kodak sensor is more expensive then a CMOS one, a CMOS MF will certainly come some day ... maybe a Canon
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #174 on: October 23, 2011, 07:32:32 am »

The question is whether the low volumes resulting from the niche market strategy of Phaseone generate enough business potential to give Dalsa the means to do serious technological investment.

Exactly Bernard.

IMO, what is happening with MFD is that they are in a dramatical crossroad, and the choices they will make from now will have transcendental consequences.

1- We are seeing an exponential increment of the "low-cost" cameras performances, at least what we call the prosumer products. They have became so good that it's completly possible for a professional to work seriously with a minimum investment.

2- Habits have changed in all the chain. We are in an economical crisis, the middle class (where pro photographers are) is being pushed each time more and more towards poverty while the capital is concentrated in the hands of less and less people. Cost is not any more a weired fantasy but almost a necesity.
I remember how, not many years ago, we where all spending huge amount of money for any kind of irrelevant project. It was the time of abundance, rock-star photographers models and agencies that where acting like the Rolling Stones production.

Cost-effectiveness is the norm today, included for agencies. What MF are producing is the highest possible image quality at low-isos at the highest possible resolution. But they are not cost-effective. For some applications, MF qualities are indeed important but the range of their excelence is reducing more and more and for many pros, the justification for such an investment is questionned more than ever.

At the same time, the gap between what was the top equipment and the lower devices has been reduced. In other words, DSLRs are going faster and have increment their output quality dramatically.


3- Video has irrupted into many (not all, I know) photographers pro requirements. Not every body can afford a Red or an Alexa and even, not everybody can afford both a proper video camera and a proper high-end still camera. The necessity that the lens line is also adaptable to the video mount is also a big factor.
So, even if for the moment, convergence designs are far from being perfect, they are a rational choice for many on a budget (and many are on a budget now). I even know a recognized international photo-video grapher, with a long experience in motion, who's team works with Arri and now uses a GH2 even for serious projects, and he has the team and the prod for using whatever. Reason? he has more fun with the gh2. (ps: I also concur on that. Since I bought the GH2, I use it as much as I can, and it's more fun in use than the Canons). Those new generation cameras are really fun in use, but more importantly, very capable.

4- Softwares, specially the high-end ones in cine prod have never stopped to drastically cut their prices in the recent years. HD are cheap now, and softwares are following that tendency. Almost everybody has access now to really high-end workstation without breaking the bank account. Workstations that not a long time ago, where only seen in big production houses.

5- The increment of low-light performances has drastically changed the norms in terms of equipment required on set.

6- The eye education-perception, is changing. So as supports, like internet getting huge protagonism. People (ADs) are asking more and more for different requirements than the "best IQ possible" because they know that the message is the most important, and that this message is going to be displayed in a format that doesn't require 500000MP.


The pixel race as the holly grail is over. I think that we enter really into seriousness: the design and convergence time. Finally.

So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 08:08:29 am by fredjeang »
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #175 on: October 23, 2011, 09:34:43 am »

Fred -

 Nice analysis.
 But, do we really care? We as still photographers can now get all we need mostly from any consumer camera.
 Leaving us free to decide what we put in front of the camera.
 Maybe this forum is as obsolete as the MF dinosaurs.

Edmund



So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
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fredjeang

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2011, 10:57:15 am »


... Maybe this forum is as obsolete as the MF dinosaurs.

you are walking on a mined field Edmund...I hope you have a thick skin or missile shield.
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eronald

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #177 on: October 23, 2011, 11:26:43 am »

you are walking on a mined field Edmund...I hope you have a thick skin or missile shield.

I can always say "excuse me, that was just my wallet talking" :)

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2011, 11:46:58 am »

Hi,

I wouldn't mind to belong to two of the three kinds of clients...

Best regards
Erik


So, MF manufacturers will, or will not, embrasse those changes. It's up to them to decide which target they want to fullfill. (ps: and that will also be a Leica dilema IMO, not only MF)

What's left for them? IMO, 3 kind of clients:
- the wealphy amateur, ready to spend that money and get the satisfaction of its image excelence.
- Special apps like museums, repro, aerial etc...
- Artists who print big or really want the MF qualities in their imagery, and-or, are interested in the slower and more "religious" approach, using view cameras or directly MF bodies.

If they can live with that, I don't think that they need to change a lot the way they are doing. It just depends.
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MrSmith

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Re: The next crop of cameras is coming down the chute
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2011, 02:59:50 pm »

The pixel race as the holly grail is over.

shame nobody thought to tell the sensor manufacturers.
all the while the design and manufacture of sensors is not in the hands of the camera designers photographers will have to put up camera's that are less then ideal.

maybe canon,fuji or pentax will change this.
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