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Author Topic: medium format question  (Read 8921 times)

musso

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medium format question
« on: August 14, 2011, 08:29:12 pm »

this may be a stupid question but here i go.

now on a 35mm system there are different size sensors 1.6-1.3 and FF

now my question is does a MF give you a larger FOV than a 35mm system meaning 16mm on a 1.6 camera would be about 26mm

now will the MF be 28mm or would it be wider?

thank you
joe
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Alan Klein

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 10:06:20 pm »

Medium Format will give a larger FOV for the same lens size.  For example, a 50mm lens on a full format 35mm wouold be 80mm on a 1.6x sensor DSLR, 65mm on a 1.3x format DSLR but would be about 28mm equivalent in FOV on a Mamiya RB67 6x7 Medium Format camera.  Hope that helps.

musso

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 10:47:50 pm »

What i'm not getting is a 35mm full frame is 1 to 1 ratio. is this the case on a MF system. What I forgot to ask is if the MF lens is built any different to make up the different size in the sensors. 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2011, 11:25:12 pm »

Hi,

MF lenses are simply larger and may also have smaller apertures. Having a smaller aperture keeps size and cost down. Most lenses are not very sharp at maximum aperture anyway.

MF sensors come in different sizes, but they are normally rectangular with aspect ratio different from 1. So to make quadratic pictures you need to crop. There has been a few quadratic chips some years ago.

Most digital backs have a crop factor, because the sensor is smaller than "full 645 frame". This is due to the excessive costs for large chips. The crop factor essentially means that wide angles will be less wide.

Best regards
Erik


What i'm not getting is a 35mm full frame is 1 to 1 ratio. is this the case on a MF system. What I forgot to ask is if the MF lens is built any different to make up the different size in the sensors. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2011, 11:34:52 pm »

Here's an interesting link to explain some of this stuff and too use a calculator to compare different lenses and sizes to cameras types.  http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-lenses.htm.

The 35mm is 1:1 ratio only because it has become industry practice to use 35mm full frame as a reference point  because the old cameras were FF 35mm film cameras.  Many old timers are used to those cameras so it's easy to use it as a reference standard.  SO 50mm on a 35mm FF camera is "normaL. But puit the same klens on a Micro 4/3rds and you have 2x power or the equivalent of 100mm telephoto, or an 80mm lens on a 1.6 DX DSLR equivalent pciture.  Because the back is larger (film or digital back on a medium format), the pciture becomes wide angle with a 50mm.

musso

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 11:54:38 pm »

i guess what im getting at is i dont see any MF lenses below 28mm. is 28mm  suitable for landscape photos with out stitching photos together for a decant landscape. or do i have this all wrong. im really thinking about a MF system and i love to do landscapes but most of my landscapes are below 24mm with a full frame 35mm system. 
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ondebanks

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 04:56:59 am »

i guess what im getting at is i dont see any MF lenses below 28mm. is 28mm  suitable for landscape photos with out stitching photos together for a decant landscape. or do i have this all wrong. im really thinking about a MF system and i love to do landscapes but most of my landscapes are below 24mm with a full frame 35mm system. 

Yes, 28mm is incredibly wide on either 645 film, or one of the largest, "almost but not quite 645" digital backs.

Since you have been brought up on the system of digital sensor crop factors with respect to 35mm/full frame sensors, the easiest thing for you to do would be to look at it this way: small digital sensors have crop factors which are greater than 1.0x:
4/3rds = 2.0x
Canon etc. = 1.6x
Nikon etc. = 1.5x
Canon 1D & Kodak *60 series = 1.3x
35mm FF = 1.0x
...so medium format sensors/film have crop factors which are less than 1.0x, still using 35mm/FF as the reference size. In this scheme, a large medium format sensor is around 0.6x.

That makes a 28mm MF lens deliver an ultra-wideangle field of view. Per my post here, the FOV is 102.4 degrees and the 35mm/FF equivalent lens would be 17.4mm.

What may confuse you, if you look at specs for medium format digital systems, is that you will again see crop factors like 1.3x and 1.1x, greater than or equal to 1.0x. The confusion evaporates once you are aware that these factors are normally with respect to a reference 645 film frame size (or in some contexts, 6x6 film frame size - this will be clear from the camera body), not a reference 35mm/FF frame size.

Ray
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Doug Peterson

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 10:14:38 am »

Easy to Use Free Calculator (specific for medium format):
     http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/02/03/focal-length-equivalent-calculator/

In addition since you're new to MF you should read our primer on Technical Cameras for Medium Format Digital. This is by far and away the highest quality you can get for wide angle. It also allows you to do true stitching where the lens remains completely static and the digital back moves within a larger image circle. This manner of stitching has several advantages over rotating the camera and geometrically recreating the image with a stitching program. Some of these advantages are outlined in Don Libby's user report.

One example would be a 9-image stitch with an Aptus II 12 on a Arca Swiss RL3D and a Schneider 60mm XL (where the lens remains static and the back captures the top left, top center, top right, middle-left etc of the image circle) would be the field-of-view equivalent of a 17mm on a 5DII and would capture 460 megapixels in an image which would not need to be geometrically reshaped back together (since the image captured is 9 sections of one continous image circle). The same thing with a 5DII would require somewhere around a 48-shot stitch (6 rows of 8 images, 30% frame overlap) with a 100mm lens. That of course assumes all megapixels are equal (ask anyone with a modern digital back and a 5DII how they feel about the color, pixel-sharpness, dynamic range and tonal smoothness), and that it's possible to capture 48 images before the lighting/scene changes too much, and you'd still need to run those images through a stitching program which has to stretch/squeeze/remap the pixels to fit together since you're moving the lens for each shot.

Less extreme stitches of just 2 or 3 images with e.g. a Schneider 47XL can capture very wide images with great corner sharpness, and extremely high total resolution without having to remap the frames together.

There are a lot of issues/techniques that are not readily apparent for medium format landscape photography. That's one reason landscape workshops such as our upcoming NE Fall Color Workshop have been so successful - some of these techniques and equipment really have to be handled in person to be fully appreciated. I'd strongly suggest you attend such a workshop or get in contact with a respected medium format dealer (mind you this is somewhat of a shameless plug for us, but of course there are other good dealers out there you could consider as well) who can have the long conversation and arrange for the hands on testing you'll need to really get a firm grasp on what's available and what the advantages/disadvantages are for each option.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 10:26:27 am by dougpetersonci »
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bcooter

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 02:47:23 pm »

"One example would be a 9-image stitch with an Aptus II 12 on a Arca Swiss RL3D and a Schneider 60mm XL (where the lens remains static and the back captures the top left, top center, top right, middle-left etc of the image circle) would be ..."

D.

I'm curious do you know anyone who sells an aptus II 12, a arcs Swiss and a schnieder 60mm?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 03:42:27 pm »

bcooter: I have never made any attempt to hide my biases which are stated in my signature on every post and even stated in this post that I was shamelessly plugging us as a dealer that can provide both expertise and equipment.

But I do normally do a better job of starting off such a post with "note upfront I should be considered a biased source of info - that said, we spend a lot of hands on time (and a lot of time with clients) to develop real-world advice." So thanks for reminding me.  ;D

JonathanBenoit

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2011, 03:52:40 pm »

17mm on a 5DII and would capture 460 megapixels

You'd then have to crop that 460mp image because who in their right mind likes the angle of view a 17mm shot gives.
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musso

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2011, 07:29:12 pm »

Thank you that makes more sense to me now.

thank you everyone for your input I learned a lot from this post. i am able to make an informed decision  now.

thank you
joe
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 05:00:04 pm »

bcooter: I have never made any attempt to hide my biases which are stated in my signature on every post and even stated in this post that I was shamelessly plugging us as a dealer that can provide both expertise and equipment.

But I do normally do a better job of starting off such a post with "note upfront I should be considered a biased source of info - that said, we spend a lot of hands on time (and a lot of time with clients) to develop real-world advice." So thanks for reminding me.  ;D


Doug -

Don't fall over yourself making excuses. They're not biases. They are reference points of relevant information. Everyone understands where you work and what you do. And the information you provide to this forum has been valuable for many members. Of course..... I am biased.


Steve Hendrix
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bcooter

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 05:34:43 pm »


Doug -

Don't fall over yourself making excuses. They're not biases. They are reference points of relevant information. Everyone understands where you work and what you do. And the information you provide to this forum has been valuable for many members. Of course..... I am biased.


Steve Hendrix

Steve,

Take what I said as sort of a joke, because we know Doug, you and most dealers are very pro their own brands.  You guys mention Leaf/Phase, another dealer mentions Leica and we all know what you guys sell, regardless of what the signature says.

I don't expect Doug to mention that the Hasselblad has a removable prism, or true focus any more than I expect you to say it's taken Phase 3 to 4 years to get the Mamiya with just a right angle grip like the Contax.

Regardless, your information is appreciated, but I don't think it takes into account the changes professional image making is facing.

The point I'm making, if there is a point, is from my view and only my view professional image making has gone through a major shift of what clients expect. 

We just came back from a month's project shooting mostly digital motion and stills.

Though this was a large, well budgeted project it definitely would not have come my way had we not offered high end motion as well as high end still imagery.

The previous large project we shot was still based, but the agency/client requested motion imagery.  Two years ago the still imagery would have received 75% of the attention and 75% of the post production work, but in this case it flipped 180 degrees, to the point two months later we are still cutting video's from the project and the retouched still imagery was delivered two weeks after the project.

That's a huge shift in our industry.

I'll admit on the plus side both of you guys give good information regarding the brands you represent, but as you and I know the idea is to sell your brand . . . nothing wrong about that.  I sell our studio's brand everyday.

The only thing I see in this forum and most of your related posts  is it's not a complete reflection of the changes in the professional industry.

The equipment (cameras) we used (RED) were very close in price to the top of the line digital backs though did a lot more, shooting motion, sound, movement all with continuous lights.  Those parameters of the project don't always fall in line with medium format still cameras, especially using continuous lights and the need for high iso in the still imagery to match the motion sessions.

Maybe you can relate this information to the respective manufacturers you represent, because as I go forward to buying new equipment, I'd love to know if Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad plan on a cmos based, live view medium format camera and/or back.

That would go a long way to helping  decide where I and others plan to place our expenditures, because moving to motion has changed where we place our money and how we make our overall plans.

In regards to information, I know the representative makers of cameras don't want to tip their hand to the competition, but sometimes the lack of future transparency works against them because I won't  spend money today if everything is going to change tomorrow?


IMO

BC




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JonathanBenoit

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 06:30:38 pm »

In regards to information, I know the representative makers of cameras don't want to tip their hand to the competition, but sometimes the lack of future transparency works against them because I won't  spend money today if everything is going to change tomorrow?

This is all very debatable. Your work might have a need for both still and motion now, but who know how things might change/evolve. It's like the economy. I think the majority of shooters are either motion or still. It might work for you now. It might work for you down the road. It's definitely premature to say that this is how it's going to go for more than 10% of photographers. I'd be very curious to know how many medium format owners also shoot motion. I would guess it's much fewer than you think.
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Schewe

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 06:51:53 pm »

I'd be very curious to know how many medium format owners also shoot motion. I would guess it's much fewer than you think.

Actually, the number of high end medium format shooters also shooting high end video is growing for lots of reasons. The big one is to "get the job". But lower end capture gear (DSLR) shooting low end video (DSLR) is pretty established and tends to eat itself because of dwindling budgets.

However, when bc says "In regards to information, I know the representative makers of cameras don't want to tip their hand to the competition, but sometimes the lack of future transparency works against them because I won't  spend money today if everything is going to change tomorrow?"

Ya think bud? Tipping the hand? Really? Might in not also be doing the R&D to find out whether it's possible? Chip yields for large sensors are horrible (which is why big chips cost a lot of money) and the R&D is very, very expensive. I think some of the doubt about CMOS in 645 sizes is the developmental costs...how long did it take Red to ship the Epic? Was it the camera or the sensor that took so long? (hint, the odds are it was the sensor)

You can bet that Phase/Leaf are looking real hard at doing CMOS chips if for no other reason that CCD manufacturing (and manufacturers) are dwindling.

Besides, everything is gonna change "tomorrow" right? Why worry? Get what you need when you need it and make money with it.
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bcooter

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 08:35:40 pm »

Actually, the number of high end medium format shooters also shooting high end video is growing for lots of reasons. The big one is to "get the job". But lower end capture gear (DSLR) shooting low end video (DSLR) is pretty established and tends to eat itself because of dwindling budgets.

However, when bc says "In regards to information, I know the representative makers of cameras don't want to tip their hand to the competition, but sometimes the lack of future transparency works against them because I won't  spend money today if everything is going to change tomorrow?"

Ya think bud? Tipping the hand? Really? Might in not also be doing the R&D to find out whether it's possible? Chip yields for large sensors are horrible (which is why big chips cost a lot of money) and the R&D is very, very expensive. I think some of the doubt about CMOS in 645 sizes is the developmental costs...how long did it take Red to ship the Epic? Was it the camera or the sensor that took so long? (hint, the odds are it was the sensor)

You can bet that Phase/Leaf are looking real hard at doing CMOS chips if for no other reason that CCD manufacturing (and manufacturers) are dwindling.

Besides, everything is gonna change "tomorrow" right? Why worry? Get what you need when you need it and make money with it.

No I don't think any maker of anything is going public to give out future plans and no I don't think that the Fed is going to drive a truck up to my front door with gold bullion either.

I do know that when it comes to cameras if you are so inclined and pal around with the camera companies they'll tell you most of the pieces of the future puzzle, so in a way they do tip their hand.

In regards to motion I can't answer who does what, because I don't really listen to what other photographers are doing.  I've always found it best to keep my eye on my own ball and keep working.

Maybe it works for me because I have been shooting some kind of motion with still based projects for a number of years, so it wasn't that much of a leap, but once again I don't have a polling organization.

I do know shooting motion has done more than just get me the gig, it's now at least 50% of our billing structure.  In fact the clients that don't ask for motion, if time permits we still shoot it and everyone has asked to buy the footage so maybe the photographers that don't get asked are the ones that aren't doing it. 

I dunno.

I do have an inbox though and I get at least 10 still to video related e-mails a day, so somebody must think it's important.

IMO

BC

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stewarthemley

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 09:07:54 pm »

Doug Peterson of C! wrote:  (ask anyone with a modern digital back and a 5DII how they feel about the color, pixel-sharpness, dynamic range and tonal smoothness)

Well, here's one who is not only entirely happy with the features, performance across many criteria and price of his 5D2, but is also mightily pissed off with people taking cheap shots at it. And yes, I own more than one "high end" (ie stupidly expensive) back so have compared them. Can I respectfully suggest you concentrate on selling your products and lay off items that are clearly aimed at a different market. And yes, I know you sell Canon too. Sorry about the tone, Doug, but this knocking copy touches a nerve.
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fredjeang

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 09:13:18 pm »

It's funny.

Maybe...a year ago or so, in my assistance, motion came first as a funny extra buzz from time to time. Beleive it or not but in an high-end studio, the Apples where too underpowered for the first motion we did so we had to use Windows units and Premiere.

But about 6 months ago, it wasn't just extra fun any more. It was the deal. In fact, I was "gently invited" to start a post-prod learning in motion otherwise the assistance value was seriously disminuished. I had the chance that I love it and wanted it, but some who didn't want to hear about it are today's cuying where I don't need to explain.

In some ways I thank those changes because by myself I wouldn't have choose to spend my week-ends learning and fill my head with tech to reach indigestion. Only now I'm starting to enjoy, just starting to get it and still a lot to learn but it's exciting.

The thing is commercial photographers want people now much much more preapared than just doing a nice photoshoping, setting triggers and strobes (that are disapearing), or scream to the boss "you're 10cm off" like it generally occurs with certain kind of sets...(am I pointing something in particular? nooo...) all that because the chalenges are bigger, in less time and let's be honest not paied as much as before (that's more complicated in fact).  They want people very very preapared inside the fixed team. People that are doing everything or at least a lot, not well but very well and fast. And motion is more than 50% of revenues.
That's not something to mess-up with.

ps: and something I find motion brought back to the plateaux are seriousness and concentration. Because it became a circus where everybody was playing with their I.phone aps, talking about where to download those stupid aps in the breaks lunch...gadget cult...now we're back to seriousness on set.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 09:23:06 pm by fredjeang »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: medium format question
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2011, 06:52:29 pm »

Opinion and advice tends to be biased, all the more so when there's financial interest involved. If I asked for opinion from any of the representatives that hang here I'd be confident that I'd receive informed, valuable and biased opinion; I'd be naive to expect anything other.

The reps here provide a mine of information and this list would be all the poorer without them, but the reality is the company advertisements above and the presence of the representatives are inexorably linked.



I agree on all counts. Though the banner ads that have been introduced have only recently emerged (we're surprised they didn't come sooner).

Without getting into the virtues of having mixed participation on user forums, I will just say that we are extremely conscious of the fine line that is walked. Frankly, I think sometimes we step over it. Fortunately, we're usually alerted to it quickly.

We're certainly motivated to participate by the potential for exposing our company to a target audience. That said, when I began participating on public user forums (back in the Galbraith days), I did not really imagine that would lead to any particular advances on sales (I was kind of naive that way). I just participated for the heck of it - I found the discussions interesting, I had my own perspective, and there you go. The difference today is that I am aware we at Capture Integration occupy a prominent position as providers of these products, and given the success of Luminous Landscape as a destination for information and discussion about them (and many other  products, technologies, artistic preferences, etc), it's natural that some who read our postings may feel compelled to contact us. Well done by LL, btw.

It is not easy (nor common) to discuss products you sell objectively. I don't know how successful we are there, but I do feel strongly that we have modified our approach to be as non-sales-ish as possible, that we provide information that is relevant, that is truthful, and real world, not manufacturer party line.

I will just finish by saying that I appreciate it when we're informed that we have stepped over the line, been disrespectful, or are guilty of over-enthusiasm. I also appreciate being told when we're walking the line the right way.

Regardless of whether we posted anything or not, we would still be frequent visitors, because we receive free feedback from you, the users of these products, your perspective on the equipment you use, how you use it, how the industry is changing, etc.

Thanks everyone.


Steve Hendrix
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