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Author Topic: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?  (Read 4725 times)

Waeshael

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Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« on: September 11, 2011, 03:04:35 pm »

I set up two cameras on a dual head tripod, both with Leica lenses, set them to ISO 100, and f8. I matched the images as close as possible. One camera required 3 x the exposure of the other. The two cameras were DMC-L10 DSLR 4/3 sensor with Leica D Vario Elmar lens 14-50 mm f3.8 - 5.6. And the other a Lumix DMC-LC5 viewfinder camera with 1/1.7 sensor and Leica Summicron 7-21 mm lens.
I made the shot at low res so that the web image at 100% was a viewable size. The L10 image is a bit larger because that was as low a res as was possible. Details are in the picture.
Now the detail in the pictures are comparable. One camera cost $500 and the other $58. The L10 required 3 x the exposure of the LC5. Why do you think this was? If you know the technology that went in to these cameras you can probably figure it out.

By the way the DMC-LC5 is 2002 technology. If you would like to see how good the color is with this old technology (the Leica Digilux 1 is identical) have a look at rangefinderimages.com and search for DMC-LC5 pictures.

I know you guys are mostly into buying new camera stuff as soon as its announced, and I do the same thing. I'm shooting NEX-5 with Leica SUmmicron lenses and the results are incredible. But there is a lot to be said for the older cameras. I use the Digilux 1 and DMC-LC5 anytime I want to capture fall colors.

Anyone want to have a go at explaining the difference in exposure time. There is no trick photography here - these are straight captures adjusted for WB and converted to jpeg for the web.
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2011, 04:33:21 pm »

Does the L10 have a pellicle mirror?
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Waeshael

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2011, 04:57:27 pm »

A good point, but no it uses a traditional mirror.

thanks:
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2011, 11:46:35 pm »

I guess I'm missing the point of your pop quiz, because I'm not surprised at all that two metering systems might vary as much as 1 to 1.5 stops or that the two lenses don't allow exactly the same amount of light through at the same f stop.(in your case it's about 1.4)?  3x the exposure would have been 1/2000th of a second.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2011, 11:49:18 pm by Wayne Fox »
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torger

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2011, 05:57:26 am »

As Wayne says it 1/250 to 1/712 is not 3 stops, since one stop is a doubling. It is about 1.4 and then differences in lens t-stops, sensor sensitivity (ISO100 is unfortunately not the same between different sensors), and metering system strategy can make up for all the difference. Probably metering system is the largest factor -- it may choose to expose a bit more to the left to avoid blowing highlights with the drawback of a more noisy picture, or do the opposite and expose to the right. The highlights are a bit more blown on the 1/250 exposure which suggests that it is exposed more to the right than the 1/712.
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Waeshael

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2011, 01:35:54 pm »

Sorry I didn't mean to imply 3 stops I said 3 x the exposure i.e 1/712 is about 1/3 of the 1/250 (which is a rounded figure anyway). The amount of light reaching the input of the lens was of course the same. The brightness of the image is a little different although the shadows are the same. there is probably 1 zone difference in the red doors, but highlights both clip at the same levels. It would seem that there was more longer wavelength light being measured by the sensor electronics for the DMC-LC5 camera, as the relative number of pixels is higher for the mid to high tones on the DMC-LC5 image - as can be seen on histograms of the images.

No there is nothing wrong with the metering. The same incident light at the camera, produced more electrons at the sensor on the DMC-LC5 - apparently more than twice that of the L10, because the exposure cut off so much faster, and there is a good technical reason for this - any more ideas?

I will tell you that the DMC-LC5 lens has fewer elements and there is less light loss within the lens.
But the main difference is in the sensor design which is, by the way, a non Bayer sensor. The sensor was designed so that there would be minimal noise levels at the base ISO of the camera, and there are a couple of factors that contribute to low image noise levels which makes the camera more sensitive.

By the way I have tested similar camera designs against Nikon D50, Fuji S100fs, F50fd, and other recent Panasonic camera. I found that in low light (very dim), I had to set the D50  to ISO 800 to get the same image brightness as an old Panasonic at ISO 100 for the same shutter speed. This was mostly a difference in the speed of the  kit lens f2.4 vs f5 at that particular zoom level, but also due to differences in the light gathering design of the sensor. Of course a prime lens on the D50 would make it more sensitive, but as I was shooting church pageantry I needed a zoom.
In actual practice I could shoot the one camera hand held at 1/50 second f 2.4 full zoom at ISO 100  and to match it, I had to set the D50 to its widest aperture for the same zoom at ISO 800. Which image do you think showed the best color, best dynamic range, and lowest noise? The one at ISO 100.

Of course, today, with my $6,000 Leica lens package on a NEX-5, I can get really good images at ISO 1600, and shoot at F2, so that I can stop motion. But it's nice to know you can get just as good a picture in daylight with a well designed $50 camera from an auction on E-Bay.
Yes, It's hard to beat the images produced on a Camera with Leica vario Summicron 7-21 mm lens, and with a CMYG filter array, - pixel binning keeps down the noise. I have posted some 100 pictures on Rangefinderimages.com made with this camera design by both Leica and Lumix.

So, the increased sensitivity of the DMC-LC5 is due to its efficient lens design (worth half a stop I guess) its CMYG filter array which collects twice as many wavelengths as an RGBG Bayer filter array, and its binning software that sums the collected data from several photodiodes at lower resolutions (so the pixels are effectively bigger).

thanks for jumping in and contributing.

Waeshael.
 
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schrodingerscat

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 12:34:48 am »

f8 is f8, regardless of the lens, other than manufacturing sample differences. My guess is the differences are in the metering schemes between the camera models. The proper way to do the test is with the same lens mounted on the bodies. To test if the difference is due to lens variations, then it should be  a controlled lighting setup manually metered and exposed, with the same camera model.
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Gary Brown

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 07:38:17 am »

f8 is f8, regardless of the lens, other than manufacturing sample differences.

But two lenses at f/8 don't necessarily let the same amount of light through that f/8-sized aperture.

That's why the T-stop was invented. See the “Definitions” section of Mark Dubovoy's An Open Letter To The Major Camera Manufacturers on this site regarding that topic.

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fdisilvestro

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 08:39:13 am »

I think that we cannot conclude anything without having access to the RAW files (which I think it is not possible with the DMC-LC5) and knowing the real ISO of the camera at the manufacturer´s indicated ISO 100 (the sort of measurements available at www.dxomark.com, but again, the DMC-LC5 was never tested)

SeptimusFry

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 12:04:52 pm »

Just as a matter of no importance whatsoever... what are the dimensions of the front glass of the two lenses?
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theguywitha645d

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 12:16:07 pm »

Some thoughts:

f-numbers don't account for transmission. There is more to transmission than simply the number of elements/surfaces.

Speed is speed and sensor sensitivity/response is part of that, but...

There are more than one ISO standard for digital cameras.

Shutter speeds may not be accurate (or the EXIF data could be wrong).

Then there is camera processing. The brighter image is also the one with less exposure.

I don't think you will find an answer. It is a systemic problem and i don't think you can break the system down to know what is happening. Interesting though.
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SeptimusFry

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2011, 01:10:08 pm »

I would be interested to know if you got the same-ish results if you swapped lenses. Did you try that?

Some of the posts seem to assume that the lens has little to do with it... it is the sensor, it is the shutter... but it would interest me to see the influence of the lens.

 ;D ;D
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Ray

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Re: Puzzle of the Day - do you have an answer?
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2011, 10:08:16 pm »

Interesting! A 1.4 stop exposure difference does seem a bit much. The first causes that spring to mind, which have already been mentioned, are T-stop differences combined with manufacturer's ISO exaggeration. A claimed ISO 100 is almost always an exaggeration, if one gives credence to DXOMark results, which I do.

A half stop (or more) difference in transmission between the 2 lenses is quite possible. Also a half stop (or more) difference between the claimed ISO and the actual ISO is also possible.

Both factors working together in an additive way could result in that 1.4 stop difference in exposure at the same F/stop and same claimed ISO, assuming that one camera had a real ISO that corresponded with the claimed ISO, and the lens attached to that camera also had a T-stop which corresponded with the F/stop.

However, there is another possibility which intrigues me because I'm not sure precisely what's going on.

The Canon 50D appears to have a base ISO of 100, yet half the exposure (twice the shutter speed) at ISO 200 produces the same result in terms of shadow and highlight detail.

DXOMark show the true sensitivities at both ISO 100 and ISO 200 as being virtually the same, ISO 157 and ISO 158 respectively. In all their other graphs of DR, SNR etc, they don't even mention ISO 100 for the 50D, presumably because there would just be a repetition of the test results.

What puzzles me is that using ISO 100 on my 50D always requires double the exposure of ISO 200, as one would expect disregarding DXOMark ISO sensitivity graph, but IQ-wise, there's no noticeable difference whatsoever. It's as though ISO 200 (actually ISO 158) is the true base ISO, and ISO 100 is just ISO 200 with a one stop, electronic neutral density filter added.

It could be that something similar is going on with one of your cameras, ie. the insertion of an electronic ND filter.
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