Newbie to MF world - help !

[dynaman]

Hello All,

I've been thinking for a few years to enter the MF world and now i finally am able to do it with a limited budget. Despite reading and looking up information there are many buzzwords and specs to consider from the available systems. Right now i got it to boil down to these potential kit candidates:

A. Leaf Aptus-II 8 with Phase One DF Body and 80mm LS Lens
B. Phase One P45+ Back Bundle with 645DF Body, 80mm LS
C. Phase One P40+ Back Bundle with 645DF Body, 80mm LS
D. Hasselblad H4D-40 Medium Format DSLR Camera Kit with 80mm f/2.8 HC Lens
E. Pentax 645D + 55mm Pentax lens

My budget should not exceed 23k USD for this year.

And now The Question: What would you recommend ?

I hope the following can help a bit answering this;

- mostly outdoor use, anything but models / fashion shows
- weather sealing / proof (?)
- longterm system / quality
- easy sensor cleaning if possible or at least auto-clean feature (beside usual maintenance)

What i wonder about;

- which important difference between B and C ?
- colordepth in bits per channel ? (importance)
- expected shutter life and realworld expectation if possible ?
- ergonomics  ? (don't mind a heavy sys to walk with (up to 2kg)

Much appreciated if anyone can give his / her opinion.

Thank you !

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Difficult to predict the future is.

The Pentax 645D seems to be an excellent value, is weather sealed. It is also most DSLR like.

A digital back is more versatile, you can put it on different MF bodies but also on view cameras and cameras like the Alpa.

I presume that Hasselblad is going to be along for long, but who knows? Phase really needs a camera for their backs, so they probably keep also in the business.

Pentax, who knows? But the development and tooling is done, so it makes sense to continue building the cameras.

There are some good articles about the Pentax: http://www.wyofoto.com

Lloyd Chambers has excellent info on the Pentax and some on Hasselblad: http://www.diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Pentax645D/index.html
(Lloyd site is a pay site but worth every penny).

There is also a lot of info on Luminous Landscape.

Best regards
Erik

Hello All,

I've been thinking for a few years to enter the MF world and now i finally am able to do it with a limited budget. Despite reading and looking up information there are many buzzwords and specs to consider from the available systems. Right now i got it to boil down to these potential kit candidates:

A. Leaf Aptus-II 8 with Phase One DF Body and 80mm LS Lens
B. Phase One P45+ Back Bundle with 645DF Body, 80mm LS
C. Phase One P40+ Back Bundle with 645DF Body, 80mm LS
D. Hasselblad H4D-40 Medium Format DSLR Camera Kit with 80mm f/2.8 HC Lens
E. Pentax 645D + 55mm Pentax lens

My budget should not exceed 23k USD for this year.

And now The Question: What would you recommend ?

I hope the following can help a bit answering this;

- mostly outdoor use, anything but models / fashion shows
- weather sealing / proof (?)
- longterm system / quality
- easy sensor cleaning if possible or at least auto-clean feature (beside usual maintenance)

What i wonder about;

- which important difference between B and C ?
- colordepth in bits per channel ? (importance)
- expected shutter life and realworld expection if possible ?
- ergonomics  ? (don't mind a heavy sys to walk with (up to 2kg)

Much appreciated if anyone can give his / her opinion.

Thank you !

[Ajoy Roy]

The new LS lenses from Hasselblad, Schneider and Pentax are priced similarly, but if budget is a constraint, you can also use the older non AF lenses with Mamiya and Pentax.

As cameras go H4D is the most modern of the lot, the Pentax is a close second, but the sensor is integral to the camera, so in case of any advance you have to change the whole Pentax.

I would suggest that you get a new H4D40 and use the 10% vouchers for further lense acquisition. You can manage the H4D40 and two new lenses within your budget.

[julienlanoo]

had exactly the same problem in February,

I went for a P45+, ( as i use lots of wide angles, thus it has a bigger sensor than the H4D40 and the P40+)
Also i am happy with the Phase One Body, as there isn't a lot of nonsence on it.. And i can use mechanical shutter release cords...
One little minus on that Body is the batteries in the Body, they are AA's, but when you buy 2000 mha or 2200 mha batteries rechargeable from Duracell, they go like a week.. 

Also only buy the shneider lenses, they are realy worth it, if you need sizes not yet in the shneider collection, best buy it second handed... ( as the mamiya's aren't worth their new price..)

Further more, i am 100 % happy with it... realy it's a world of happyness when you see your phase one images in magazines..

[Graham Mitchell]

Last I heard, the Pentax did not support tethered shooting. That would be a deal-breaker for me but perhaps not for you. The lenses are also a mixed bag in terms of quality (according to user feedback). If you can live with those limitations, and lack of viewfinder choice, slow flash sync, etc, then it could be the bargain choice.

[julienlanoo]

Yeah but on the other hand, you know, it's eighter way a big investment,
My thoughts are, that it's beter to put that little bit more of cash into a system, be it Phase One, Hassy or Leaf, and have something that's a complete "good" midformat cam, than buy one that's cheap and is half and half....

You can't go wrong with Phase One , Hasselblad or Leaf, ...
It depents on what you want to do an what your post-production is like.

I love my phase one workflow, but one of my best friends swears to his hassy...

Eighter one is good..

[dynaman]

Thank you all for the replies so far ! Appreciated !

Here is after some more sweating and thinking what i noted;

- Leaf Aptus-II 8 with Phase One DF Body and 80mm LS Lens
Cheaper than the P45+ for about the same specs (except no serious long exposure time, max 32 sec)

- Phase One P45+ Back Bundle with 645DF Body, 80mm LS
Seems the pixel size is 6.8 x 6.8 micron compared to Leaf Aptus-II 8 and H4D-40.
Long exposures which i like from time to time...

- Hasselblad H4D-40 Medium Format DSLR Camera Kit with 80mm f/2.8 HC Lens
They have zoom lenses which is a big plus for my needs but the shutterspeed of max 1/800
is a bit of a disappointment compared to the rest. But the TrueFocus / APL are things to consider...


Choices choices ...

[theguywitha645d]

I have used Phase backs and I own and use a Pentax 645D. It is a real MFD camera and there are fine optics for it. Unlike Mamiya bodies, which are rather long in the tooth, the 645D is really well designed and a pleasure to use in the field. While I have certainly been in the field without weatherproofing, it is nice to have. Pentax has really brought MDF body design up to date. I have no complaint with the optics I am using--DFA 55mm, A 35mm, and A 120mm marco. The Pentax right angle finder makes using the camera at lower angles easy. If you need to "tether" the camera, folks have used a EyeFi card successfully--there is a Japanese video online showing the performance. My system fits in a compact bag and is easy to carry. I don't find the camera heavy at all, but it is solid. And you can customize its functions easily. The batteries have good performance and are easy to find as they fit other Pentax DSLRs. ISOs up to 1600 and I have made quite a few 3 minute exposures and the camera can go longer. The weatherproof IR remote is very good and can be used with mirror lock up and bulb exposures. You can also get a GPS geotagging unit if you like. The new 25mm lens seems to be excellent. Leave some budget for more computer storage. Shooting with the 645D is really addictive.

When I was looking for a system, I was not impressed by user feedback on the Mamiya/Phase body and optics. They seem to be a mixed bag. The body does not seem to be well designed and I heard of many failures and the mirror does not seem to be well dampened. I really don't like the clunky Phase One four-button controls on the Phase backs--the Pentax menus and body controls are far better.

[dynaman]

I have used Phase backs and I own and use a Pentax 645D. It is a real MFD camera and there are fine optics for it. Unlike Mamiya bodies, which are rather long in the tooth, the 645D is really well designed and a pleasure to use in the field. While I have certainly been in the field without weatherproofing, it is nice to have. Pentax has really brought MDF body design up to date. I have no complaint with the optics I am using--DFA 55mm, A 35mm, and A 120mm marco. The Pentax right angle finder makes using the camera at lower angles easy. If you need to "tether" the camera, folks have used a EyeFi card successfully--there is a Japanese video online showing the performance. My system fits in a compact bag and is easy to carry. I don't find the camera heavy at all, but it is solid. And you can customize its functions easily. The batteries have good performance and are easy to find as they fit other Pentax DSLRs. ISOs up to 1600 and I have made quite a few 3 minute exposures and the camera can go longer. The weatherproof IR remote is very good and can be used with mirror lock up and bulb exposures. You can also get a GPS geotagging unit if you like. The new 25mm lens seems to be excellent. Leave some budget for more computer storage. Shooting with the 645D is really addictive.

When I was looking for a system, I was not impressed by user feedback on the Mamiya/Phase body and optics. They seem to be a mixed bag. The body does not seem to be well designed and I heard of many failures and the mirror does not seem to be well dampened. I really don't like the clunky Phase One four-button controls on the Phase backs--the Pentax menus and body controls are far better.

Thanks for the info ! So basically you prefer the Pentax 645D compared to the Phase One system ? (when it comes to 40MP and base specs that is) The Pentax is really tempting but it worries me that there are only 2 MF lenses available. The rest is something i'd rather not use or buy as it was never designed for the Pentax 645D. I can work with those 2 until there are more available so it's not a huge problem.

The H4D-40 attracts me because they have, among others, good lenses plus good zooms available, especially the zooms as i don't like to keep switching lenses during trips.

The P45+ seems to have alot of positive feedback (ergonomics won't break the deal for me alone btw).

So it's a difficult choice, me on the bleeding edge would like the Pentax 645D, i won't need more than 40M but if i turn a blind eye on the no zooms available (for MF), then what if it takes ages before Pentax releases new quality glass for the 645D ? I gotta lookup if there is some roadmap on this from Pentax..

[theguywitha645d]

Thanks for the info ! So basically you prefer the Pentax 645D compared to the Phase One system ? (when it comes to 40MP and base specs that is) The Pentax is really tempting but it worries me that there are only 2 MF lenses available. The rest is something i'd rather not use or buy as it was never designed for the Pentax 645D. I can work with those 2 until there are more available so it's not a huge problem.

Why don't you want to use older 645 lenses? I have two and they perform beautifully. There are also Pentax 645 zooms that have a good reputation. It is true some of the old 645 lenses are not great--the 45mm has been panned by most--but there are lenses that are universally liked or even raved about. Getdpi forums has a 645D image thread and many other 645D threads. You can also go to Pentax Forums that have a lot of threads on the 645D.

Here is a Japanese site where you can view full-size images from older Pentax lenses on a 645D (click on the images to see them bigger, loading can be slow):

http://ganref.jp/magazines/index/1/0/369

with some zooms:

http://ganref.jp/magazines/index/1/0/368

Chis Willson (travel 67) has some full-size images from the 645D on his Flickr account, some from the 55mm and some from the Pentax 6x7 105mm.

As for new lenses, apparently Pentax has third lens slated for next year. They have suggested that there will be a new lens every year, but predicting is hard to do, especially about the future.

I have used Phase backs on view cameras. I really don't like the phase interface and it is more work getting rid of things like lens casts--something I do not need to do with the 645D. The Phase backs may be different on a Mamiya body, but from what I understand, the body and back are still separate with separate controls. I was just started shopping for a MFD when I saw the 645D. I was intending to go with Phase, but after seeing results with the Pentax, I changed my mind. The Phase system seems like a lot of different pieces put together unlike an integrated system. I liked the Pentax ISO and bulb specs better as well.

BTW, I have not used Hasselblad MFD and so I don't know if they have a more integrated approach.

Now all of these cameras do what they as supposed to do, but for some reason, the Pentax is treated like a second class citizen. Perhaps if Pentax charged more...

[dynaman]

Why don't you want to use older 645 lenses? I have two and they perform beautifully. There are also Pentax 645 zooms that have a good reputation. It is true some of the old 645 lenses are not great--the 45mm has been panned by most--but there are lenses that are universally liked or even raved about. Getdpi forums has a 645D image thread and many other 645D threads. You can also go to Pentax Forums that have a lot of threads on the 645D.

Here is a Japanese site where you can view full-size images from older Pentax lenses on a 645D (click on the images to see them bigger, loading can be slow):

http://ganref.jp/magazines/index/1/0/369

with some zooms:

http://ganref.jp/magazines/index/1/0/368

Chis Willson (travel 67) has some full-size images from the 645D on his Flickr account, some from the 55mm and some from the Pentax 6x7 105mm.

As for new lenses, apparently Pentax has third lens slated for next year. They have suggested that there will be a new lens every year, but predicting is hard to do, especially about the future.

I have used Phase backs on view cameras. I really don't like the phase interface and it is more work getting rid of things like lens casts--something I do not need to do with the 645D. The Phase backs may be different on a Mamiya body, but from what I understand, the body and back are still separate with separate controls. I was just started shopping for a MFD when I saw the 645D. I was intending to go with Phase, but after seeing results with the Pentax, I changed my mind. The Phase system seems like a lot of different pieces put together unlike an integrated system. I liked the Pentax ISO and bulb specs better as well.

BTW, I have not used Hasselblad MFD and so I don't know if they have a more integrated approach.

Now all of these cameras do what they as supposed to do, but for some reason, the Pentax is treated like a second class citizen. Perhaps if Pentax charged more...

Thank you, i will take another good look at the 645D and the older lenses, at least those suitable for it. It is my impression too that the 645D seems to be the underdog in all this MF violence of systems

PS: Will check in a bit those images on the links you gave me, thanks !

[bcooter]

Thank you, i will take another good look at the 645D and the older lenses, at least those suitable for it. It is my impression too that the 645D seems to be the underdog in all this MF violence of systems

PS: Will check in a bit those images on the links you gave me, thanks !

If you are a professional and buying your first medium format system (without the investment in any current camera system) the Pentax probably "would" have put a chill into the hearts of most of the current medium format cameras.

It was the first medium format camera with a useable lcd, shoots jpeg and raw and though some find the body funky, it's also sturdy and Pentax has always been known for good optics.

The only issue was tethering and the fact the camera didn't go worldwide immediatly. 

Still, for the price, in my mind it's where medium format cameras should have been priced from the start.

IMO

BC

[dynaman]

If you are a professional and buying your first medium format system (without the investment in any current camera system) the Pentax probably "would" have put a chill into the hearts of most of the current medium format cameras.

It was the first medium format camera with a useable lcd, shoots jpeg and raw and though some find the body funky, it's also sturdy and Pentax has always been known for good optics.

The only issue was tethering and the fact the camera didn't go worldwide immediatly. 

Still, for the price, in my mind it's where medium format cameras should have been priced from the start.

IMO

BC

Thank you, although i'm no expert in MF dynamics, i can see Pentax as the new kid on the block setting a new trend in the MF world of the "established". From a conservative point my first thought went to the usual names but i'm going to seriously consider Pentax. I just hope that those lenses they make specifically for their MF are really good and those upcoming. The body is important but if the glass is no good then the body won't matter.

[mediumcool]

Kudos for the P45+ for decent megapixels, long exposure capability, and optional use with technical/view cameras (movements).

Also for the Mamiya/Phase bodies (I use the 645AFD) because there are many older inexpensive lenses available—I have all manual-focus lenses which I will gradually replace with AF versions (except for the 50mm shift and 80 macro).

However, the Pentax is a nice all-in-one solution that would be optimal for action and hand-held work. Plenty of MF and AF lenses out there.