phase one questions

[eronald]

It's interesting, the comparaisons with MF because it seems that the same is happening in motion.

The situation is divided in 2 bands. Settled is the 2K HD and digital cinema seems to adopt definatly 4k.

On the "small sensors-cheap" we have the 5D, 7D, GH2...and the camcorders. Those are the 2Ks

On the big expensive artillery equivalent to MF is RED ONE (no surprise if some comments further up saw similitudes within politics) and ARRI.

It will not be surprising to see the same sort of "battles" we know in still.


Very soon we will see the 7D family guys arguying that the REDs are too big, heavy, expensive and slow and that they don't give any significant advantage for 2K but only if you print big (in thisa case cine) etc...
Then the proud muscles guys will strike-back with resolution and DR argument, that 4K downsampled to 2 gives better MQ (motion quality) and will feed the internet with Arri workshops or Red trips in Mozambique.
There will be a war between Avid and Premiere Pro, Mac vs pc, stills vs motion, 2K vs 4K, a complete mess.

Be preapared, it's on the street corner.
 

A plague on all their houses

Edmund

[ChristopherBarrett]

Heh...  I'll be on the Red/Premier Pro/Resolve/Mac/Phase One/Arca corner with the mud piled up and ready to sling.

[fredjeang]

Heh...  I'll be on the Red/Premier Pro/Resolve/Mac/Phase One/Arca corner with the mud piled up and ready to sling.

Panasonic/Avid/Nuke/Windows/Canon/Zeiss corner...the light and fast mobility reserve, ready to launch a surprise strike.

[torchiam]

anyone saw the epic m?

http://www.red.com/system/products/datas/622/original/Epic_Rotation.jpg?1302542793

it do looks like a 645D or what.a film production friend told me the sensor of it will be small,definitely not MF.

i mean,if it is at least full frame i am think about throw my money in.thinking about you can use all the cine lens is awesome!

i will digress again here by another question.any friend here use a adapter to put a cine lens for still photography?how is the image?is there any different touch on the look?

[ChristopherBarrett]

I've had a chance to play with the Epic as well as the Scarlet while at Red Studios.  They are Damn seductive.  I'd say the Epic is heavier than a Blad H series, but it is WAY lighter than my Red One.  I've already got a set of Cooke Primes and the support gear, so the Epic-M is a fairly attractive package...   The new camera, though the same MX sensor, is purported to have a nicer, cleaner image with greater DR due to better processing and throughput.  I'm just looking forward to shooting up to 96fps with no drop in resolution.  Fun stuff.  I'm not giving up my Phase One or Arcas anytime soon, but with the forthcoming Red Canon mount I am definitely going to experiment with shooting the TS-E glass on Epic for stills.

I have a feeling I'm going to be selling my pile of strobe in the near future.

[bcooter]

I've had a chance to play with the Epic as well as the Scarlet while at Red Studios.  They are Damn seductive.  I'd say the Epic is heavier than a Blad H series, but it is WAY lighter than my Red One.  I've already got a set of Cooke Primes and the support gear, so the Epic-M is a fairly attractive package...   The new camera, though the same MX sensor, is purported to have a nicer, cleaner image with greater DR due to better processing and throughput.  I'm just looking forward to shooting up to 96fps with no drop in resolution.  Fun stuff.  I'm not giving up my Phase One or Arcas anytime soon, but with the forthcoming Red Canon mount I am definitely going to experiment with shooting the TS-E glass on Epic for stills.

I have a feeling I'm going to be selling my pile of strobe in the near future.

Here's where the issue of one camera fits all falls down, expecially in regards to digital motion and stills

This is an approx. crop of medium format 645, 35mm 3:2, standard RED and most motion cameras 16:9 and the new Epic 2:1.



As you can see none of these fit any standard editing format except 16x9, unless your going to have your video viewed at the movie theatre.

Now as much as these ratios change imagine in the world of multimedia and vertical video/stills (yes this will happen) how a 2:1 ration will very much limit what is even a computer page size.

I think we're a long way off from a one camera solution.

IMO

BC

[ChristopherBarrett]

Why you always be hasslin my buzz, James. LoL. Yeah I know, as much as I'd prefer not to have to lug 4 camera/lens cases around. The only magic bullet is your own vision.

As you know, none of the Red cameras are ratio specific. You set your ratio per project... You just have to give up some sensor to truncate the format. I do intend to test shooting the Epic with PC glass on a couple Still jobs, but I'm not eBaying my P65+ anytime soon.

CB

[fredjeang]

I'm working now in 2048x1556, the funny story is that it is damn close to the micro4/3...I know I know...micro 4/3 it's consumer stuff but in terms of aspect ratio I find them much more interesting, the issue is that the sensor at its max motion reso is well...16:9

So 2K super 35 = micro4/3 = Contax 645 D, do you follow me?

What I don't really get is which lenses will fit the Epic's sensor?  because Chris is talking about the Canon's released but the info I have (and it can be uncomplete) is that they are putting efforts (canon) in super 35.

Does it basically means that the Epic will be rarely used at its full 5K reso? it seems to me that it's the case.

Honestly, after the codecs, the ratio mess. When will we get out of that muddy soup once for awhile and get stable standarts?

[ChristopherBarrett]

What I'm talking about is an Eos lens adapter. Jim and Ted both already have working ones and predicted release is September (grain of salt disclaimer).  These have full electronic control with touchscreen operation. You can actually pull focus by just tapping two different parts of the image on the screen and inputting a duration in a pull-down menu.   The big deal for me is being able to use my existing Canon glass or my primes. Of course all that glass easily covers 5k.

[fredjeang]

Ah, ok. I thought you had those in mind because of the PL mount http://usa.canon.com/cusa/broadcast/products/broadcast_lenses/hd_ec_lenses (those would not be suitable for the Epic)

It might be really interesting to work with TS lens etc...

I've been following those adapters saga for awhile in RedUsers and users demands.

Well, if this electronic is as you say, we might see a lot of Epics, Canon glases, and 5xD as backups.

The problem with the PL mount is that prices have litterally explode in quick period and the cost of those lenses is clearly speculative for the moment. If Canon can supply the demand with large production it will be back to normality. The adapter way seems a very intersting option in that context.

Hey, I don't want to play at the cristal ball but it seems that Canon can bring again cost effective solution in the high-end. They are planning to be number one in motion as they did in still photography.

[bcooter]

What I'm talking about is an Eos lens adapter. Jim and Ted both already have working ones and predicted release is September (grain of salt disclaimer).  These have full electronic control with touchscreen operation. You can actually pull focus by just tapping two different parts of the image on the screen and inputting a duration in a pull-down menu.   The big deal for me is being able to use my existing Canon glass or my primes. Of course all that glass easily covers 5k.

CB,

You do love equipment man and though I dig RED remember you went to a RED seminar whose agenda was to inform but also keep the buzz going and sell.  (Remind you of any other camera companies?)

I think all progress is good, have my doubts on touch screen and time focus.

Already the Sony FS100 will track focus well with the e-mount lenses and I'm sure someday we'll have programable, subject recognizable focus where the focus puller just taps on a subject and the lens adjusts at any time of sequence you wish.

Anyway, I dig the idea of the Epic, wish it had a larger 24x36 sensor so cropping was easier and to set the record straight for motion I like a 2:1 better than 16x9 which is more cinematic.

In typical RED style if the touch screen focus was available today, the bomb evf would probably still be backorder, so you'd be fighting the focus puller to see the screen.

Ahhh, RED, those funny people.  They really do have the medium format secret handshake syndrome.

Problem is 90% of all video is 16x9 so since the epic is 2:1 somebody's gonna have to crop something.

We just added another RED and stripped it down for hand holding and it's very manageable.  Not a 5d2, but not a Panaflex either.

I guess I dig equipment also, but refuse to ever beta test again, unless somebody else is writing the check.


IMO

BC

[torchiam]

oh mine...did anyone see how the answer change the question?

[Dustbak]

...They really do have the medium format secret handshake syndrome...

BC

This one I want to have at a plate/tile on the wall

[ChristopherBarrett]

What, me?  A gear whore?  Nooooooo....  I don't even have the latest digi-back... LoL.  It's all in the Kool-Aid and it's nothin but trouble once you develop a taste for multiple flavors. Seminars are definitely marketing opportunities, but I think I may have instigated as many Profoto sales as P1 sales at PODAS.  When people see how you can control all the heads from a laptop, there is magic in the air.

Weight... Funny thing is, I bet if I throw one of my Cookes on the Epic with my Mattebox and Follow Focus that it'll weigh the same as the stripped down R1 wth Nikon or Zeiss glass.  What's a 5 lbs difference on a 25 lbs rig?  The biggest advantage I can see with the Epic is the increased IQ I keep hearing about combined with HDRx... and the fact you can get the whole damn thing into a roll-a-board.

Beta testing?  When I orchestrated the digital transition for the studio that must not be named, nobody amongst the dealers could offer a turnkey solution for shooting architecture, so I had to research every camera from every manufacturer and it had to replace a 4x5 with lenses from 65mm to 300mm.  We did P45+s on Arca F Metrics... not a bad solution, but not as good as the current options.  Shit's always changin.  It's a pain in the ass being at the forefront, but I love problem solving.

I do dig the 2:1 format.  Hell, one of my favorite personal series was shot with a 6x12 back and since I've started shooting motion I have a hard time finding vertical compositions anywhere anymore.  Everything just WANTS to be cinematic.

I got the email that my Bomb order was ready to ship.  I'd already had the Zacuto EVF for a month and so cancelled the Bomb... thinking one will come with the Epic anyway.  On a recent shoot I was totally nailing focus with the ZVF... shooting at T2.9.  I'm not talking architecture, I'm talking eyes, moving people with a 75mm that has about an inch and a half DOF on the closeups.  Never thought I'd want more than an LCD to work with, but the ugly damn Zacuto just works.

I think most of us love the gear... you'll never give up that damn Contax will you?  I so wanted one of those back in the day... 

I'm entering random tangential mode.  Time to wash off the chlorine and hit the bar.

[bcooter]

I'm not arguing equipment, but back to the original thought of this thread, Phase One Questions, I would like to see it named large expenditure questions.

Of course this is all artist/business model relative, but given that you are going to buy a new camera and your a professional image maker, where would you place your resources?

On a $50,000 still camera or a $50,000 motion camera?

Now the epic at least today is much more than 50 large and it is a work in progress and regardless, until it's cooked I'm going to wait.  I just won't beta test anything that has do with cameras.

For my business model owning two RED ONEs has more than paid for themselves, including a $25,000 Digital station for the RED and not paid for itself just in just covering the costs, but paid for itself in being awarded larger more complex projects.

The epic 2:1 format is good but still doesn't match 99.9% of the format most people edit to and if the Epic is really a digital stills motion camera, the sensor really should be 4:3 at 5k with cropping to any format.

This gives you better still options and motion formats.

BTW:  Just a note for future motion image producers, the RED workflow, is actually faster than any motion workflow we've used, because once we've processed and color the dailies, we can go straight to work editing.

The little Canon Fs100 we bought still requires unwrapping the AVCHD format to h264, then batch processing the files to prorezz, before any coloration is done, so the Sony is a three part process to get ready to color, the RED one process and with our DIT station it is fast.

We've usually produced dailies by the end of the day's shoot.

But I admit I'm sorry I changed the thought of this thread as I'm sure still cameras are very important to people, it's just in my business model, comparing what I need to go forward, new still cameras are a little further down the list.

Also BTW:  Our second RED One, we've stripped down for hand holding with still zeiss lenses, and the battery mounted on the belt.  It's about 10 pounds, not 23 and more than manageable.

IMO

BC

What, me?  A gear whore?  Nooooooo....  I don't even have the latest digi-back... LoL.  It's all in the Kool-Aid and it's nothin but trouble once you develop a taste for multiple flavors. Seminars are definitely marketing opportunities, but I think I may have instigated as many Profoto sales as P1 sales at PODAS.  When people see how you can control all the heads from a laptop, there is magic in the air.

Weight... Funny thing is, I bet if I throw one of my Cookes on the Epic with my Mattebox and Follow Focus that it'll weigh the same as the stripped down R1 wth Nikon or Zeiss glass.  What's a 5 lbs difference on a 25 lbs rig?  The biggest advantage I can see with the Epic is the increased IQ I keep hearing about combined with HDRx... and the fact you can get the whole damn thing into a roll-a-board.

Beta testing?  When I orchestrated the digital transition for the studio that must not be named, nobody amongst the dealers could offer a turnkey solution for shooting architecture, so I had to research every camera from every manufacturer and it had to replace a 4x5 with lenses from 65mm to 300mm.  We did P45+s on Arca F Metrics... not a bad solution, but not as good as the current options.  Shit's always changin.  It's a pain in the ass being at the forefront, but I love problem solving.

I do dig the 2:1 format.  Hell, one of my favorite personal series was shot with a 6x12 back and since I've started shooting motion I have a hard time finding vertical compositions anywhere anymore.  Everything just WANTS to be cinematic.

I got the email that my Bomb order was ready to ship.  I'd already had the Zacuto EVF for a month and so cancelled the Bomb... thinking one will come with the Epic anyway.  On a recent shoot I was totally nailing focus with the ZVF... shooting at T2.9.  I'm not talking architecture, I'm talking eyes, moving people with a 75mm that has about an inch and a half DOF on the closeups.  Never thought I'd want more than an LCD to work with, but the ugly damn Zacuto just works.

I think most of us love the gear... you'll never give up that damn Contax will you?  I so wanted one of those back in the day... 

I'm entering random tangential mode.  Time to wash off the chlorine and hit the bar.

[fredjeang]

The epic 2:1 format is good but still doesn't match 99.9% of the format most people edit to and if the Epic is really a digital stills motion camera, the sensor really should be 4:3 at 5k with cropping to any format.

My thoughts too.

BTW:  Just a note for future motion image producers, the RED workflow, is actually faster than any motion workflow we've used, because once we've processed and color the dailies, we can go straight to work editing.

Indeed. Although I don't own a RED, I've been asking for some footage to be able to start to get familiar with Red workflow and not be taken by surprise. It is way faster than I thought and certainly faster than AVCHD sort of stuff.
Even in Avid editing and grading in real time the original native raw is more stable and faster (and do not slow down) while with AVCHD I have to convert because it's hell. (in fact I'm using Edius 6 to import AVCHD and batch transcode for Avid wich is the fastest and more cool I found).

the RED workflow is really good and considering that those are Raw it is damn good.

About the Epic, I would wait to see the tendencies. This sensor's format is not versatile enough IMO, but on the other hand for someone like Chris who is doing arquitecture it might be very interesting.

About MF, their lack of plans in the motion world really surprises me. I would have thought that this was a niche where they could enter like wolfs but it seems that (or at least we don't know their plans) they bet on the orthodoxy. I'm not talking about using a MF camera for video, I'm thinking about a RED sort of product but made by Phase or Hasselblad.
And after all, why not Hassy lenses motion line? even if they don't want or can't developp bodies? Zeiss does it, Canon does it. I don't get it.

[Guy Mancuso]

Who said they are already not working on such products. We need to remember these are 2 or 3 year development plans to get these kinds of items to market. Phase is pretty aggressive in making new product as we have seen lately. They know very well motion is the next step . Personally I believe this stuff is already in the works. That is not inside info either just logical movement for a company that is in business to make money and progress forward. Lots of stuff coming already new body, new lenses and these new IQ backs. No reason to believe it all stops here either. Obviously we will have to see what is next and also how the field of photography demands motion going forward too. There is no point in making anything if there is no market. So as shooters if the industry is changing more to motion and by large numbers than any good OEM is certainly going to look at it as a market for them as well. Fingers crossed for sure but I am sure this stuff is on the radar.

[fredjeang]

Who said they are already not working on such products. We need to remember these are 2 or 3 year development plans to get these kinds of items to market. Phase is pretty aggressive in making new product as we have seen lately. They know very well motion is the next step . Personally I believe this stuff is already in the works. That is not inside info either just logical movement for a company that is in business to make money and progress forward. Lots of stuff coming already new body, new lenses and these new IQ backs. No reason to believe it all stops here either. Obviously we will have to see what is next and also how the field of photography demands motion going forward too. There is no point in making anything if there is no market. So as shooters if the industry is changing more to motion and by large numbers than any good OEM is certainly going to look at it as a market for them as well. Fingers crossed for sure but I am sure this stuff is on the radar.

Yeah, but why don't they "unofficialy" give some glimpse just to keep the buzz and keep people switching motion sort of warm instead of never knowing the next plans. It could be done by "rumors" so they are free of obligations. At least something that make us smell that they want to be on that race and that they will not join the party in 2050.
Instead of that, there is more secrecy than the KGB bureau and that can cost potential clients to give-up and get involved into other brands and that's very difficult to recuperate. I sometimes don't get the marketing strategies.
Oh and yes, I forget, with prices on par with the Red cameras.

[ChristopherBarrett]

There lies the divergence in our motivations.  Aside from being a hell of a photographer, you are a good businessman and make decisions based upon what's good for the bottom line.  While my Red has also paid for itself, the other 70k I've spent hasn't.  I assume it will eventually, but I don't really care.  I'm beginning to make little Indie Art Films that are going to have Zero ROI but are immense fun and open my mind to entirely new possibilities.  I do suspect (or hope) they'll cause my career to blossom in an unexpected direction...   Basically my commercial work is financing personal work and while it eats heavily into profits, it's good for the soul and I've always felt that any strengthening of personal vision can only benefit the commercial vision... which eventually grows the bottom line.

While the Epic is not a finished product, it's good enough for many major motion pictures to be rolling with right now and the changes that come will all be via firmware.  It does have HDRx working, which could be invaluable for interiors shooting.  Oh! And don't forget 5 second versus 90 second boot time!  Where James' workflow is more aggressive and fast paced, mine is relaxed enough that hiccups go unnoticed and I have time to tinker, so yeah, this camera may work better for me, for now.

Ok.... this is where I integrate the OT digression into Torchaim's original question and bring the thread full circle.  Phase began as a much more open system and has only become more closed as some manufacturers have dropped away and others have closed their camera systems (all stated earlier).  It remains open to the older camera bodies (nice that they still produce those mounts) and continues to be the more viable platform for tech/view camera shooting.  So, still the most open.  AND I have a hunch that you are going to see video capable, CMOS sensors from them which will allow their current customers huge flexibility.  Right now you can drop from 80mp to 20mp via Sensor+ to gain sensitivity.  If I could drop down from the 10k res still image to a 2.5k motion image to capture additional assets without changing anything on the camera I would wet my pants.  The only down side to this notion is the relative slowness of MF lenses... while f/8 is awesome for stills, having to shoot motion at f/4 or 5.6 is kind of a drag.

Now... I need more coffee.

CB

[fredjeang]

There lies the divergence in our motivations.  Aside from being a hell of a photographer, you are a good businessman and make decisions based upon what's good for the bottom line.  While my Red has also paid for itself, the other 70k I've spent hasn't.  I assume it will eventually, but I don't really care.  I'm beginning to make little Indie Art Films that are going to have Zero ROI but are immense fun and open my mind to entirely new possibilities.  I do suspect (or hope) they'll cause my career to blossom in an unexpected direction...   Basically my commercial work is financing personal work and while it eats heavily into profits, it's good for the soul and I've always felt that any strengthening of personal vision can only benefit the commercial vision... which eventually grows the bottom line.

While the Epic is not a finished product, it's good enough for many major motion pictures to be rolling with right now and the changes that come will all be via firmware.  It does have HDRx working, which could be invaluable for interiors shooting.  Where James' workflow is more aggressive and fast paced, mine is relaxed enough that hiccups go unnoticed and I have time to tinker, so yeah, this camera may work better for me, for now.

Ok.... this is where I integrate the OT digression into Torchaim's original question and bring the thread full circle.  Phase began as a much more open system and has only become more closed as some manufacturers have dropped away and others have closed their camera systems (all stated earlier).  It remains open to the older camera bodies (nice that they still produce those mounts) and continues to be the more viable platform for tech/view camera shooting.  So, still the most open.  AND I have a hunch that you are going to see video capable, CMOS sensors from them which will allow their current customers huge flexibility.  Right now you can drop from 80mp to 20mp via Sensor+ to gain sensitivity.  If I could drop down from the 10k res still image to a 2.5k motion image to capture additional assets without changing anything on the camera I would wet my pants.  The only down side to this notion is the relative slowness of MF lenses... while f/8 is awesome for stills, having to shoot motion at f/4 or 5.6 is kind of a drag.

Now... I need more coffee.

CB

Chris, there is something I don't get. You shoot with the P65 plus and I imagine your clients in arquitecture are seeing it (not like editos where nobody cares).
Saying that you'll be happy with the reso you are talking about for stills within a single camera package still-motion that could be the Epic style and talking about coffee, I almost dropped mine on the screen when I read your lines. I thought "what is happening to Chris?"
Have I read or understood your lines well?