Ventizz to acquire Hasselblad

[Rob C]

Well yes, I think it does.

No amateur is likely to be thinking of buying into Arriflex country but lots of them do think of buying into MFD, so the intended (and reasonably possible) markets are probably very different in the case of the two types of product.

The greater question facing the larger format still camera industry is whether or not the 'dentist bubble' might suddenly burst and take down many of those who depend on its exclusivity to make sales and stay in business. Have to say, I can't recall any people other than pro photographers wanting to lug around a Hasselblad outfit during the 50s, 60s, 70s and even 80s. Leica was the jewel of choice.

Rob C

[design_freak]

Certainly does if you are looking to attract buyers who are outside the industry.

You mean the amateur photographers?? 

[feppe]

You mean the amateur photographers?? 

You mean the market segment which drives camera sales from point&shoots to DSLRs to (probably) MFDs? Or more accurately, non-professionals.

[bcooter]

People outside the film industry haven't heard of Arri. Does that really matter?

I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories.  Some make some money, some live off other funds  though run full fledge studios,  but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.

Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.

Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.

Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and  a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or  Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.

I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.

Now in moving imagery it's different. 

With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.

In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras.   If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.

Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.

This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.

In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.

The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED?    Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.

I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling.  Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.

They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.

Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting.    3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in.  Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.

As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.

IMO

BC

[design_freak]

I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories.  Some make some money, some live off other funds  though run full fledge studios,  but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.

Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.

Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.

Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and  a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or  Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.

I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.

Now in moving imagery it's different. 

With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.

In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras.   If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.

Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.

This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.

In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.

The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED?    Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.

I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling.  Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.

They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.

Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting.    3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in.  Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.

As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.

IMO

BC

I agree
As I wrote, it is not known whether the photography will be in 10 years, if so, whether it will still resemble a photograph. I'm afraid that everything is moving in the direction of "video", which is more attractive to customers. (Interactive media) Is the image presented on ipad 60Mpix will be needed? Of course not. Already, customers often decide to render the products, giving up shooting.

[design_freak]

I know that it is not edifying, but it shows a lot of speed changes occurring in today's world

http://techcrunch.com/2011/04/17/iphone-4-camera/

[NigelC]

I'm expecting the usual first announcement of who gets to be fired, which is expected after a takeover.

Needless to say the "useless" people customarily include some back-office nerds who were not articulate enough about the fact that they are the ones with tech savvy which underlies the products currently marketed and under development.

Their much more political bosses and product managers usually manage to save their skins, and the higher up you get the better they fare out of the universal executive/executive honor code: Economy class gets booted out the door, Business Class get to stay in their seats, First Class get golden parachutes.

The next announcement is then usually the fact that the factory is being closed down and production moved to china, software products are being cancelled which is often just a smokescreen to disguise the fact that without the above nerds production cannot be sustained.


I just wish Hassy got sold to Fuji and the end of this dumb story.

Edmund

How true!

[Steve Hendrix]

Thank you Doug!  I am full of admiration for your ability to turn a discussion about Hasselblad's takeover into yet another sales opportunity for P1.

Nevertheless whether it is P1's intention to run a megapixel race that is in effect what has happened.  Turning to your list of features which are definitely better than the competition they still fall well short of those features available in virtually every pro-sumer and pro camera.  If both P1 and HB had invested time and money in a new CMOS sensor rather than in even more MP's we may well have these features by now.  HB will undoubtedly be working hard to upgrade their digital backs even further to compete with P1.  When are P1 going to invest in their camera system so that it might possibly begin to compete with HB?

How do you know that development is not ongoing in CMOS-type sensor technology and new cameras? It has already been stated by Phase One publicly that (2) entirely new camera systems are in development. I agree with Doug that the charge of Phase One's emphasis on megapixels does not hold merit, given that within the medium format segment, so many technical advances occurred with the IQ series that were not megapixel-based. Technology in large sensor products will always be behind (in certain ways) compared to prosumer, consumer or smaller sensor products due to the difficulty of scaling the sensor sizes while maintaining the same level of image quality. No one said it would be easy.

Smaller sensor products, while they are advanced in their features and capabilities, also engage in megapixel wars. Do you think that Canon or Nikon will stop at 24MP? I don't think so, and as long as they can maintain their quality levels, I see no reason for them to. It simply expands the possibilities for photographers.

I look forward to 100MP and 120MP medium format products, and believe Phase On'e Sensor Plus technology is a huge advantage when those products arrive, as they will provide 25MP and 30MP alternative capture modes. Indeed, these may be seen as large sensor 25/30 MP capture devices that provide the option for very large captures when necessary. I also hope that when these products do arrive, progress on the challenging aspects of larger chip technology will be overcome to the point that what has been worked on behind the scenes (including many of the items on your wishlist) will start to appear as existing features.

Regardless, I see nothing wrong with Phase One continuing to offer high megapixel counts - there is significant demand for these products, and while they work on the features that you, David will value higher, they produce excellent revenue for Phase One to continue profitably and also allows them to channel funds into R&D so these technologies can get to market sooner rather than later.




Steve Hendrix

[David Watson]

I look forward to 100MP and 120MP medium format products, ………….

Regardless, I see nothing wrong with Phase One continuing to offer high megapixel counts - there is significant demand for these products, and while they work on the features that you, David will value higher, they produce excellent revenue for Phase One to continue profitably and also allows them to channel funds into R&D so these technologies can get to market sooner rather than later.




Steve Hendrix

Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race.  Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster.  I met one of these customers on a photo trip.  He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses.  When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau.  Go figure?

Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade"

[design_freak]

Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race.  Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster.  I met one of these customers on a photo trip.  He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses.  When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau.  Go figure?

Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade"

Man, what do you have knowledge about the market? Even more unjust opinion is not heard. P1 is the kind of equipment for amateurs? You there in the UK you live in a parallel world, perhaps. Time to wake up and see what is the reality. And is that most advertising is-made by P1. Is that what you wrote was intended to diminish the position P1? I have sad news, the market is cornered just amateurs by Hasselblad, and now getting ready for an even stronger expansion in this market. Why this envy for the "poor" American? Just be glad that a guy who probably is not too much free time, he can use it for their hobby. In addition, he chose to shoot the landscape, not naked girls at the age of his granddaughter, which is typical for men of a certain age. I wonder why you were there? You have been sent to scout?
to take a look how to do??
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/about-hasselblad/events/hasselblad-xcursions.aspx

In topic "amature" :
http://www.hasselbladbulletin.com/uk/jun-2011/events/kamera-phocus-training.aspx

Ferrari ?? Do you know of some "photographer" who drives a Ferrari? I know a few amateurs who have such cars.
Do you know a professional who goes to such training for 19Euro or even 200Euro ? (Does not teach there)
Reviewing materials from "StudioDays" we can infer that amateurs go there.

It's fun to you?




 

[David Watson]

Peace brother.  I am not poking fun at amateurs (I am one too!) or that people can buy an expensive camera if they want.  I am however casting doubt on the sensibility of spending such a large sum of money on a piece of equipment and then not actually producing a print from it.

Neither am I insulting Americans (or anyone else for that matter.

My point is that we do not need more megapixels.  We need Liveview, CMOS sensors and betters cameras to match the quality of the P1 backs.
 

[eronald]

This artist shows the view from the erie at the very top of the pyramid; however the middle strata of the pyramid seem to have evaporated - those guys precisely who ran motor-driven Hasselblads into the ground, kept the labs happy, and were the company's main customer. The pyramid is becoming a lighthouse, no one left except the handful of very visible stars who do international campaigns.

Let's face it, Joe Local Pro Photographer is an endangered race, the _average_ specimen is anemic, and has too little blood to feed a mosquito, let alone a pro camera company.

I fully agree with our pseudonymous lighthouse warden's conclusion: As long as Hassy have the good sense to keep their prices affordable, and parade leggy models with flowing hair in front of wind machines at the major tradeshows, they should be able to sell their cameras, which we all agree are still the closest thing which "real" MF has to an SLR.

My friends in the industry tell me that pro 35mm SLRs are now not affordable by the few remaining "normal" pros who are getting steadily poorer by the year.  As a result "pro" 35mm cameras  are mainly sold to amateurs. Furthermore the consumer range execs hate it because the view each such sale as cannibalizing the consumer range profits. But the use of pro cameras by amateurs seems an unstoppable trend, a bit like the appropriation of tropicalised 4 wheel drive vehicles by suburban moms. Which of course should make the Hassy guys very happy, because they have no consumer range

Edmund

I know nothing about amateur camera sales, other than what some dealers tell me and amateurs fall into a lot of categories.  Some make some money, some live off other funds  though run full fledge studios,  but don't really make money, some do it just for the fun of it and some are retired doctors.

Personally, the only part I know of the industry is where 100% of my household income comes from professional image creation.

Given that, inside the industry (and I don't mean photographers, I mean clients/agencies or both), they do know a few cameras that matter.

Most know the name Hasselblad, Canon and Nikon and  a few may not know the name Phase One but know about medium format, though less client's have asked about file size or  Medium Format today for a large campaign than they did 4 to 5 years ago.

I'm not saying the medium format doesn't matter or those questions should not be asked, I'm just saying nobody asks anymore about those things.

Now in moving imagery it's different.  

With motion film if your selling to any ad agency or studio for theatrical, they will know the format and the name Arriflex and Panaflex, if you say Aaton, they'll probably ask you why because they'll probably think your shooting super 16 instead of 35mm.

In digital motion, most agencies and studios know of RED and Arriflex and will be fine if you shoot a commercial or theatrical release on those cameras.   If you say Sony, or Canon they'll probably ask why, how, etc.

Saying RED today is somewhat fascinating, because no one outside the industry knows the name everyone that hires professional image making inside the industry do know the name and are impressed, whether the camera is right for the job or not.

This kind of shows you how fast you can build a brand name in a small industry and like wise how quick you can tear one down.

In fact if you want to turn an amateur on and( "amateurs first question is . . . what kind of camera do you use"), say RED and they go "huh" and you say you know, the camera that was used for the Social Network, the last Pirates Of The Caribbean, the current in production Spyder Man.

The response to that is kewl, wow, uh you said RED?    Then there is the 4k/5k talk, how Jim Jannard decided to build a camera company and usually by then I've left the conversation anyway.

I believe the reason there is talk of the RED today is because the Advertising world is scrambling.  Everybody wants virtual, motion, effects, modern editing, even from previously print based advertisers.

They also want stills, they just don't ONLY want stills.

Today we start the process of a 34 day project with travel and shooting.    3 years ago this would be a print campaign, or still campaign with some video thrown in.  Today this is a video campaign with some stills thrown in and if you've previously been still based, watch the estimate because when you add motion it goes from 6 pages to 12.

As far as Hasselblad, I would think they'd be somewhat secure if they can hold their prices down and keep the buzz going.

IMO

BC

[Steve Hendrix]

Yet another sales message from P1 and very glad to hear confirmation that they are indeed in a MAD pixel race.  Also glad to hear that there is significant demand for these products presumably from the dentists mentioned by an earlier poster.  I met one of these customers on a photo trip.  He was an extremely rich American who was using a P65 on an Alpa body with some very expensive lenses.  When I asked him about his prints he said that he never printed his images either personally or through a bureau.  Go figure?

Meanwhile in the real world the Hasselblad H4D-60 just gets better and better - see David Grover's thread "H4D-60 firmware upgrade"

David, your affirmations for Hasselblad seem even more like sales messages than my posts for Phase One. You know I simply point out that Phase One has produced significant technical enhancements to their product far and above megapixels. In fact many of the enhancements are along the lines (though superior to) of what Mr. Grover lists in the firmware upgrade thread you re-posted for Hasselblad.

It is true that many photographers who have wealth at their disposal own Phase One products. And not all of these photographers are professionals. But the proportion who take snaps and do not even print their work is far outweighed by those who do, who work hard at their craft and who actually produce very nice images. Regardless, enthusiastic non-professionals have always been a portion of the medium format market (indeed probably always a majority). Just ask Hasselblad - I'm sure their ratio of amateur clients rivals Phase One's.

The market for commercial photography has changed to favor - even more so than in the past - smaller, more nimble formats with more and more technically advanced features. It has had to, as Edmund correctly points out, many professionals struggle to purchase even a top line 35mm system. That medium format has not kept up with these features is a reflection of the challenge to their ability to scale these features, not a desire to ignore them. As such, medium format has done well to produce products that still call to their strengths, while making them more and more useable for those that can afford them (pros and amateurs alike). In 2 or 3 years, they may very well introduce products that come quite close to what 35mm is capable of today, and yet 35mm (and smaller formats) will continue to push their own abilities even further. That's just the way it is.



Steve Hendrix

[EricWHiss]

Any news from Ventizz or Hasselblad?

[David Grover / Capture One]

Any news from Ventizz or Hasselblad?

Yep!  We are all very happy. 

[fredjeang]

This morning I went out early on a terrasse to have my coffee and I had with me this little GH2 I bought for videos only.

My goal was to play and try to understand the complex menu features while having my coffee because it's the only time I would spend doing that.

I was the only one sitting at that early time. Suddely, like in a movie, I was surrownded by 7 trucks...it was a cine team. In a question of a few minutes they started to unload the
circus and the truck that was just behind my back had the cameras.

2 guys preparing an Arri Alexa. I had seen before somewhere one of the guy, probably on a plateau and we where sort of looking at each other like your face is familiar to me
but without daring saying anything.
Still drinking my coffee while looking at the guys working and forget about the camera's menu. I asked if they needed me to move and they answered politely that I could had my coffee without prob.
The guy was looking sometimes at the little  GH2 on the table and I just said "you know, it takes PL mount..." that was like if he saw Jesus...

We exchanged few words, about Arri, Red One and this little Gh2. I didn't ask what was the movie because it wasn't my business and decided to live the area
because then the terrasse started to be crowded by all the prod staff having also their morning coffee.

The brands that resonate in today's commercial are Arri and Red. Nobody cares anymore about Still brands. (or very little)

The cine operator was amazed that this little camera could get Arri lenses, and the video specs. I'm pretty amazed to be honest of the still quality too. I didn't expect that considering the sensor's size.
I bought this camera for motion, because it's cheap, it's small, and it's very good. But what I didn't expect was finding the old Canon 1D 16mp file's quality in stills.
That was not a long time ago and zillion of pro editos have been shooted with this Canon if you remember. You would put a GH2 file instead and nobody would notice anything.

In other words, a serious edito could be shooted with this camera without the shade of the doubt and it will not happen simply because of a snobery factor. The pro has to look pro and the biggest, with cables and computers to tether, the best. But, like in the cine industry who needs 7 trucks to film a stupid B serie, those days are numbered IMO.

Technology has improved at the speed of light and prices are down, in gear and softwares. It's up to the manufacturers to take the train. IMO, MF is at the day I'm writting an obsolete proposal in the current form. The improvements claimed are way down the evolution of the industry and just take a look at Red's prices...it makes me think. IMO.

You know, some years ago, the usual 20MP resolution steps where cool. But now more and more people I know are tired about those tether stuff, those lcds, those vf, those higher isos and those prices and since video irrupted, the feeling that those gear are less and less representatives of the today's pro needs is more and more evident. The magic and mystic operates less and the smaller format industry is going faster and better.

I'm not making any apocalyptical statement, but this time MF industry has to go out of their little shell if they want to be fully in the race.

[David Watson]

David, your affirmations for Hasselblad seem even more like sales messages than my posts for Phase One. You know I simply point out that Phase One has produced significant technical enhancements to their product far and above megapixels. In fact many of the enhancements are along the lines (though superior to) of what Mr. Grover lists in the firmware upgrade thread you re-posted for Hasselblad.

It is true that many photographers who have wealth at their disposal own Phase One products. And not all of these photographers are professionals. But the proportion who take snaps and do not even print their work is far outweighed by those who do, who work hard at their craft and who actually produce very nice images. Regardless, enthusiastic non-professionals have always been a portion of the medium format market (indeed probably always a majority). Just ask Hasselblad - I'm sure their ratio of amateur clients rivals Phase One's.

The market for commercial photography has changed to favor - even more so than in the past - smaller, more nimble formats with more and more technically advanced features. It has had to, as Edmund correctly points out, many professionals struggle to purchase even a top line 35mm system. That medium format has not kept up with these features is a reflection of the challenge to their ability to scale these features, not a desire to ignore them. As such, medium format has done well to produce products that still call to their strengths, while making them more and more useable for those that can afford them (pros and amateurs alike). In 2 or 3 years, they may very well introduce products that come quite close to what 35mm is capable of today, and yet 35mm (and smaller formats) will continue to push their own abilities even further. That's just the way it is.



Steve Hendrix

Steve - I know that P1 has a great product and it is no surprise that more amateurs than pros have the money to buy this kit.  As Design Freak pointed out plenty of people own Ferraris and they are not racing drivers (parenthesised with apologies).  It is just that I do not think that we need to have so many pixels and, as you may recall, in a previous thread that I felt that P1 should be spending its hard earned money improving the usability of the back (live view, CMOS etc) than spending it on yet more megapixels.  BTW you are quite correct my final comment was an unashamed plug for Hasselblad.

[JV]

But what I didn't expect was finding the old Canon 1D 16mp file's quality in stills.

I own a GH2 as well and combined with the Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f0.95 lens it is a good, portable and inexpensive 16 MP low light solution.  Quite frankly anyone sinking $40K in a Medium Format solution would expect a better low light solution than what he is currently getting from Phase One or Hasselblad.

[Steve Hendrix]

Steve - I know that P1 has a great product and it is no surprise that more amateurs than pros have the money to buy this kit.  As Design Freak pointed out plenty of people own Ferraris and they are not racing drivers (parenthesised with apologies).  It is just that I do not think that we need to have so many pixels and, as you may recall, in a previous thread that I felt that P1 should be spending its hard earned money improving the usability of the back (live view, CMOS etc) than spending it on yet more megapixels.  BTW you are quite correct my final comment was an unashamed plug for Hasselblad.

David - I agree in many ways. But I do know that it is difficult for a company working on new technology that is extremely challenging and that in the absence of results or shipping products, no news seems like no effort. The efforts and R&D budgets are being spent, but it takes time. In the meantime, they still must produce products that better the previous models. This is the challenge for both Phase One as well as Hasselblad.

Higher megapixels - despite the premise they are not in demand - sell products. They offer superior image quality and increased flexibility, not just scaleability. They provide solutions to markets that still do demand them, and for whom the advanced technologies of smaller sensor products are wasted on - fine art, high-end product photography, art reproduction, aerial, etc. And in Phase One's case with Sensor Plus, they also provide a high ISO solution, which justifies more megapixels, as Sensor Plus uses 25% of the total.

Most of the photographers who don't need more megapixels do not buy medium format today with less megapixels. If they ever buy medium format again, it will be for features and capabilities that have not yet come to market for medium format. But in the meantime, those who will buy medium format for the megapixels are still a critical part of the market for medium format. And this is the case for both Hasselblad as well as Phase One. Both companies are improving usability to the extent that they can, and many of these efforts are not yet apparent. But they are occurring.



Steve Hendrix

[Steve Hendrix]

I own a GH2 as well and combined with the Voigtlander Nokton 25mm f0.95 lens it is a good, portable and inexpensive 16 MP low light solution.  Quite frankly anyone sinking $40K in a Medium Format solution would expect a better low light solution than what he is currently getting from Phase One or Hasselblad.

Why?

Why would someone who buys a Ferrari expect good gas mileage? The GH2 provides decent low light capability because of the type of sensor technology and the size of that technology, which helps to allow for f/0.95 lenses. The Honda Civic gets very good gas mileage, but it will only go so fast. That would be my expectation.


Steve Hendrix