B+W Printing Epson/HP/Canon VS. Piezography inks

[felix5616]

given the advancements in B+W printing with HP, Epson and canon today is there any advantage to using Piezography inks  with QTR software and epson printers? Are the prints just different or are they objectively better?

[Kirk Gittings]

That is a very subjective issue. I have not printed personally on Canons=just Epsons with OM inks and Piezography. IMO the Piezography inks give more subtle gradation and tonal transitions. But IAH, though I can make beautiful prints either way, I prefer the look of Piezography prints. Also, the tests are not all in yet, but preliminary results seem to have Piezography inks more stable. see.

[MHMG]

Also, the tests are not all in yet, but preliminary results seem to have Piezography inks more stable. see.

The Piezography Sepia tones appear to be full carbon pigment which makes the Sepia formulation highly stable, but overall image stability can still be seriously undermined by the choice of paper. Sample ID#s 105 and 146 in the AaI&A database are examples of print made with the Piezography Sepia inks, but the optical brightener in the paper used for print sample ID#146 fades quickly in test. The OBA burnout has nothing to do with the properties of the ink, yet it causes a noticeable shift in image hue nonetheless.

Also note that Piezography "Selenium" and "Neutral" tones appear to be comprised of blended colorants. These shades exhibit moderate lightfastness but definitely not the extremely high lightfastness properties of the full carbon "Sepia" ink set.  Additional trends in the AaI&A database suggest that Epson, HP, and Canon monochrome printing modes using the OEM pigmented ink sets can produce  "neutral" or "warm black" prints which exceed the moderate light fade resistance of the cooler Piezography shades (i.e., "selenium" and "neutral"), again speaking in general terms because the overall light fade response of images printed with OEM inks will also be seriously undermined by an inappropriate paper choice.  Only way to know for sure what constitutes a wise choice is to evaluate the printer/ink/media and possible coating combination as a whole system.

With respect to initial image quality: at the microstructural level of detail, the six and seven-shade Piezography ink sets do indeed produce a level of smoothness that exceeds OEM monochrome printing modes. Whether a print viewer can sense this increased level of smoothness and detail depends in great part on the visual sophistication of the viewer because the latest OEM printers' monochrome printing modes raise the image quality bar pretty high to begin with. At this already high level of quality, IMHO, coaxing an even higher level of technical excellence into a print depends more on the quality of the digital file being used to render the image and the technical skills of the printmaker than on the functional benefit of going from three up to six, or seven shades of gray. Yet it is also a somewhat self-selecting situation that often does result in higher print quality with the Piezography process – i.e., printmakers dedicated to working with Piezography tend to be much more devoted to inkjet printmaking craft than the typical user of OEM inks.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[shileshjani]

This question often arouses quite passionate, and partisan responses. Mark's comments are about the most objective I have read on this topic, and I agree with him fully.

Shilesh

The Piezography Sepia tones appear to be full carbon pigment which makes the Sepia formulation highly stable, but overall image stability can still be seriously undermined by the choice of paper. Sample ID#s 105 and 146 in the AaI&A database are examples of print made with the Piezography Sepia inks, but the optical brightener in the paper used for print sample ID#146 fades quickly in test. The OBA burnout has nothing to do with the properties of the ink, yet it causes a noticeable shift in image hue nonetheless.

Also note that Piezography "Selenium" and "Neutral" tones appear to be comprised of blended colorants. These shades exhibit moderate lightfastness but definitely not the extremely high lightfastness properties of the full carbon "Sepia" ink set.  Additional trends in the AaI&A database suggest that Epson, HP, and Canon monochrome printing modes using the OEM pigmented ink sets can produce  "neutral" or "warm black" prints which exceed the moderate light fade resistance of the cooler Piezography shades (i.e., "selenium" and "neutral"), again speaking in general terms because the overall light fade response of images printed with OEM inks will also be seriously undermined by an inappropriate paper choice.  Only way to know for sure what constitutes a wise choice is to evaluate the printer/ink/media and possible coating combination as a whole system.

With respect to initial image quality: at the microstructural level of detail, the six and seven-shade Piezography ink sets do indeed produce a level of smoothness that exceeds OEM monochrome printing modes. Whether a print viewer can sense this increased level of smoothness and detail depends in great part on the visual sophistication of the viewer because the latest OEM printers' monochrome printing modes raise the image quality bar pretty high to begin with. At this already high level of quality, IMHO, coaxing an even higher level of technical excellence into a print depends more on the quality of the digital file being used to render the image and the technical skills of the printmaker than on the functional benefit of going from three up to six, or seven shades of gray. Yet it is also a somewhat self-selecting situation that often does result in higher print quality with the Piezography process – i.e., printmakers dedicated to working with Piezography tend to be much more devoted to inkjet printmaking craft than the typical user of OEM inks.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Ernst Dinkla]

The same feeling here, Mark defined it precisely, especially the last part with the hint that next to the technology it requires a combination of good skills, a good eye and the best image resources to create the difference.  And a more than ordinary commitment to stay on that level.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[deanwork]

Actually these days Piezography K7 is pretty much a no-brainer considering how excellent Jon's free curves are for QTR. It is certainly no longer necessary to learn Studio Print and deal with all that expense.

The carbon sepia ink I use has become very straightforward out of QTR and with any of the printers from 9600 on you don't even have to do your own linearization for the most part to achieve first class results. His curves are actually better than the ones I can make myself for the 9600s.

I'm using the Carbon Sepia now on a few printers and it has become very easy indeed and the resolution is amazing even old very old legacy printers. Also clogging is not an issue as with Epson pigments.

I do like my monochrome output from the Z3100 a lot, for it's versatility, stability, and great dmax and use it just about daily, but if I compare the same image to K7 the K7 is way more three dimensional as a result of the added high values. It does make quite a difference. Otherwise I'd clean out my room full of Epson printers, which are very much still here. The monochrome output I've seen so far from the new Canon printers is not in the same league as this.

john

[Light Seeker]

John, did you make any progress with True Black and White on the Canon?

Jon's curves are indeed excellent. In addition to improved tonal gradations and highlight details, an advantage of these dedicated inks is their toning. I like the look of Cone Selenium and especially, I like the look of the Cone Special Edition set. Special Edition starts with Sepia shadows, moves to Selenium mid-tones and then blends into Neutral highlights. Special Edition prints are warm yet full of perceived contrast due to the split-toning. My preference has always been for split-toned monochrome prints, and this one is my favourite.

Another approach that looks very interesting is to take HP's glossy black and create 5 or 6 dilutions from it. HP's glossy black does well in terms of lightfastness and it's relatively neutral. This is not an off the shelf solution, but it might be worth considering for some.

Terry.

[deanwork]

No I haven't gotten the Canon yet. I did look at some black and white prints on gloss fiber this weekend by  different printmakers at the large  SPE (Society of Photographic Education) conference here in Atlanta, and I see no difference in the bronzing and gloss differential compared to Epson 9900 or the Z3100 prints on the Harmon fiber gloss that I'm doing. The only prints that completely have this gloss issue solved on those kinds of papers is Cone's new MPS gloss inks. With his method the gloss enhancer is applied after the print is made. It takes another old printer to apply it but damn they are smooth and no hint of gloss artifacts on the several samples of different inksets This was the first time that I've ever seen inkjet prints that are indistinguishable from silver prints, dark and rich and smooth. I saw them at their booth at the SPE convention and other prints afterward. The special edition was really nice to me on the matt papers but I like the Selenium better on the fiber gloss papers.

As as side note, the Canon booth was really truly sad. They had only two 13x19 prints there that were not impressive in the least and one 24" printer. We asked the woman who ran the booth how the IPF dither compares to Epson and HP. She said "dinner?" and Walker said no DITHER. And she said dither?, what's that? You wonder why a multi-billion dollar corporation can't find support staff who even have a basic tutoring, while Jon Cone and his two staff were there to answer every question in depth for 3 days. She also said oh you can run the Canon large formats at 200 ppi and see no difference, there is no reason to use 300 ppi. I kid you not that was their message of the day. Man. Go figure. Hp didn't show up at all.

john

[TylerB]

unfortunately the OP has asked a reasonable question in an area that has become a conversation many of us avoid at all costs on the internet due to past experience. Simply recalibrating even this one back to square one would be a joyless task. I strongly urge felix5616 to seek sample prints of the systems in which he has interest, they would be easy enough to get, and make his own decisions. Whatever cost involved would be far less than committing to a setup that ultimately does not meet his needs.
I hasten to add, though I have done extensive testing of the mentioned systems, I am a practitioner of none of them specifically, not do I sell sample prints.
Hi John, yes that Canon booth was unfortunate, particularly since their new printers are worth a good long gander.
Tyler

[shileshjani]

I have received a small sample print of MPS from Inkjetmall, and I agree 2nd pass GLOP solves the gloss differential issue. On that note, the earliest GLOP prints I saw were from Helen Bach, many years ago (perhaps 2004/2005?). I have been using this technique since then. As a matter of fact, when I print for my own display, it is customary for me to GLOP 2 or even 3 times, to further enhance the three-dimensionalilty of the print. Another note on 2nd or 3rd pass GLOP is that it can have has the same beneficial effect on Epson Color, ABW, or OEM K3 inks driven by QTR. For my aesthetic values, I would not use any currently available PK paper/ink combination if it were not for GLOP. Gloss differential is a bane of all PK papers/inks to varying degrees, and I find all I have seen first hand objectionable. There is nothing special about Piezo MPS inks in that regard. If memory serves me correct Epson R800/R1800 were the first commercial printers with GLOP (please correct me if I have that wrong), and Image Specialists soon marketed Krystal Topkote for that same purpose. The antecedent of GLOP overcoat is spraying of prints, which goes back many, many years.

Snip

The only prints that completely have this gloss issue solved on those kinds of papers is Cone's new MPS gloss inks. With his method the gloss enhancer is applied after the print is made. It takes another old printer to apply it but damn they are smooth and no hint of gloss artifacts on the several samples of different inksets This was the first time that I've ever seen inkjet prints that are indistinguishable from silver prints, dark and rich and smooth. I saw them at their booth at the SPE convention and other prints afterward. The special edition was really nice to me on the matt papers but I like the Selenium better on the fiber gloss papers.

Snip

john

[MHMG]

... If memory serves me correct Epson R800/R1800 were the first commercial printers with GLOP (please correct me if I have that wrong), and Image Specialists soon marketed Krystal Topkote for that same purpose. The antecedent of GLOP overcoat is spraying of prints, which goes back many, many years.

Right, but in the configuration Epson and HP both use (i.e. printed in first pass register with the the image), the driver feathers the GLOP into the image so that it receives max amount in the media white and decreasingly less in higher image density areas. The second pass method cannot register the GlOP channel to the image content, so I gather it's a maximum GLOP overcoat in all areas of the print. In effect, the printer which lays down GLOP in a 2nd pass has been turned into a clever print coating machine!  That's probably why the prints look so free of bronzing and differential gloss and yes, the technique in theory should be useful with any pigmented ink set, OEM or otherwise. BTW, I have some second pass GLOP samples in test at AaI&A. Like the acrylic sprays, the trends suggest that the full GLOP coat enhances lightfastness, maybe not quite as significantly as Premier Print shield or the like, but in a positive direction nonetheless.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[shileshjani]

Right Mark. I am talking about 2nd (and more) passes, akin to Print Shield. I first saw this in 2004(5) from Helen Bach. People have been doing that (perhaps with less fanfare) since that time. All I am saying is that when one sees an MPS print, don't be surprised, it has been done since before MPS was availble. I think IS also advertized Krystal Topkote as a protectant. The effect is truly to beholden in color prints with 2 or 3 passes of GLOP. Let me know if you want me to send you prints. I can also contribute prints for fade testing post GLOP if you want. I would use a 4880 OEM inks with ABW and QTR, and on a number of different papers. Oh, I would gladly pay the old $25 for membership.

Not part of this thread, but I thought I would throw this out anyway. How about incorporating some clear antioxidant into GLOP? Would that help with light stability. The idea being that any free radicals created by light interaction are quickly acted upon by an antioxidant. Vitamin E would not work because it is brown/yellow in color. But HALS?

Shilesh

Right, but in the configuration Epson and HP both use (i.e. printed in first pass register with the the image), the driver feathers the GLOP into the image so that it receives max amount in the media white and decreasingly less in higher image density areas. The second pass method cannot register the GlOP channel to the image content, so I gather it's a maximum GLOP overcoat in all areas of the print. In effect, the printer which lays down GLOP in a 2nd pass has been turned into a clever print coating machine!  That's probably why the prints look so free of bronzing and differential gloss and yes, the technique in theory should be useful with any pigmented ink set, OEM or otherwise. BTW, I have some second pass GLOP samples in test at AaI&A. Like the acrylic sprays, the trends suggest that the full GLOP coat enhances lightfastness, maybe not quite as significantly as Premier Print shield or the like, but in a positive direction nonetheless.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Ernst Dinkla]

Applying gloss enhancer together with the image building should increase dotgain/bleed in theory. Which limits the amount of gloss enhancer that can be applied that way. On the Z3100 and Z3200 it is possible to separate the image building and the gloss enhancer coating step.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

[deanwork]

Does that do the job Ernst?

How do you send the print back through for a gloss enhancer coating after the print is dried? What does the result look like? Do you just send the empty canvas through at the same print size and use the full paper coat setting without and special levels or curves attached? I can not believe I haven't tried this. I'm not sure if it is enough to do the job though, but I'll try it.

Spraying any of these very smooth fiber gloss papers do not completely eliminate bronzing with the Z, either before or after using the printers usual gloss enhancer settings with the pass in the normal way. The Harmon comes very very close to perfection after spraying but not totally like the extra pass method.

john




Applying gloss enhancer together with the image building should increase dotgain/bleed in theory. Which limits the amount of gloss enhancer that can be applied that way. On the Z3100 and Z3200 it is possible to separate the image building and the gloss enhancer coating step.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

[Ernst Dinkla]

With Qimage I only have to use full page gloss enhancer and a small image strip somewhere at an edge of the print page, small enough to cut off outside the main image.
The other way where gloss enhancer is used in economy mode and the borders kept free of GE, I can load a white image of the same size + the Qimage print filter I made to get that slight shift for GE printing without adding color. Have to use register tabs then. The first method is easier as more images on one print page can be coated and only a small strip is wasted.

I actually tried it to take away the haze of the HP Baryte: print, polish, coat. But it doesn't solve the haze issue then. Applying another coat like wax does. The surface evenness of the HP GE could be better in my opinion. As if the GE doesn't flow enough. Whether that has something to do with the amount(s) laid down, I didn't test enough.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.ht

[Alan Goldhammer]

Not part of this thread, but I thought I would throw this out anyway. How about incorporating some clear antioxidant into GLOP? Would that help with light stability. The idea being that any free radicals created by light interaction are quickly acted upon by an antioxidant. Vitamin E would not work because it is brown/yellow in color. But HALS?

Shilesh

A couple of issues here as I see it.  You would need to make sure that whatever chemical you added to give it antioxident properties was colorless AFTER a free radical reaction.  This is not always the case.  Secondly and more important, if you have a surface coating on the print, it's very hard for any agents capable of producing free radicals to reach the pigment layer of the print.  This is why varnished paintings retained their colors even though the varnish yellowed over the years.  When the varnish was removed, the original colors were still quite vibrant.  Personally, I think if one if going to take the time to spray or otherwise coat an image, the existing products seem to be all that are needed.

[johncustodio]

Ernst-

When you set up a paper preset on the HP you have the option to vary the GE amount from 0 to 120%. I know this was designed for the Z3200, but would it also work on a Z3100? I have a Z3100, but the GE slider doesn't seem to have any effect, at least not when I set it to 120%

-John

[MHMG]

Right Mark. I am talking about 2nd (and more) passes, akin to Print Shield. I first saw this in 2004(5) from Helen Bach. People have been doing that (perhaps with less fanfare) since that time. All I am saying is that when one sees an MPS print, don't be surprised, it has been done since before MPS was availble. I think IS also advertized Krystal Topkote as a protectant. The effect is truly to beholden in color prints with 2 or 3 passes of GLOP. Let me know if you want me to send you prints. I can also contribute prints for fade testing post GLOP if you want. I would use a 4880 OEM inks with ABW and QTR, and on a number of different papers. Oh, I would gladly pay the old $25 for membership...

Shilesh, hold that thought for a little while. AaI&A members have already submitted 47 samples this year for testing, but only enough funds are currently on hand to start 4 in test. My goal is to add 100 new samples into test during 2011. Funding is clearly lagging behind yet I truly believe that AaI&A members who take the time to submit samples are doing their fair share for the AaI&A digital print research program. I am now looking for appropriate sponsors (i.e., companies or organizations with no conflict of interest in what materials we test) to try to finance the research, but it takes time. Anyway, I'm very interested in this subject of coatings and laminates. I think we are going to find some real interesting results with respect to longevity as we study this aspect of inkjet technology more closely.

To date, with over 200 samples already in test we have covered a lot of ground with respect to the influence of printers/inks/papers choice, and also learned some important facts about the role of optical brighteners. We are also gaining considerable insight about monochrome print performance (i.e. blended versus full carbon ink sets and the influence of media choice on monochrome image hue stability).  Coatings and laminates are the next frontier!  The 2-3 pass GLOP technique has a rightful place in the coatings category.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[deanwork]

Well after a day of working with it  for black and white , I see absolutely no reason to try to run the gloss fiber prints back through the Z printers for the purpose of adding post printing coating layers of the gloss enhancer. That is what I thought, but now I know for sure.

I worked with the smoother surfaces like the Harmon gloss baryta and the Ilford Gallerie Baryta and in both cases tried second and third coatings of gloss enhancer after the print was dry.  Unfortunately this only added to the bronzing sheen. Oddly enough it actually made the bronzing sheen pinkish and therefore a lot more noticeable, not less.

My 8x10 tests included examples of the first prints having a regular economy coat with the printing, a whole page coating with the printing, and several tests of applying no enhancer while printing at all and applying one, two, or three coats of it later. None of this came close to my original procedure which is to use the economy gloss enhancer or the whole page enhancer while printing and applying three light coats of a solvent uv varnish like Hahnemuhle or Moab as the last stage after the print is dry. That procedure eliminates about 95% of all bronzing effects. Gloss differential is not visible with the standard Z gloss printing technique with my workflow, only a stubborn residue of bronzing.

So, my opinion is the HP gloss enhancer is not composed of the same compounds as the Cone MPS ( and Epsons?) go and does not do the job of eliminating the bronzing withe Z3100 gloss fiber prints when doing black and white work containing a lot of carbon pigments.

john

[Ernst Dinkla]

Yes, it doesn't flow in a way. another GE medium might be an answer but will it act correctly when the image + GE is printed at the same time on for example RC paper? If HP decided to create a gloss enhancer that keeps dotgain low it may not be the best GE to use for extra coatings on baryta papers. The Z3100 was introduced at a time that baryta and fiber qualities were hardly used. Their own HP Baryta 2 years later wasn't a solution either.

But what about RC papers and the GE applied while printing? On the HP ID Premium Satin in Economy mode it looks alright to me.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst

New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm