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Author Topic: Right amount of sharpening  (Read 7932 times)

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 02:16:18 am »

I would not call this picture of Ragnar Axelsson sharp  : http://www.lecerclepolaire.com/images/agenda/rax-axel/Rax-20.jpg

to be a good image, it should not necessarily look like plastic

right !
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Schewe

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 02:22:51 am »

I would not call this picture of Ragnar Axelsson sharp...

So, what would YOU consider sharp?

It's pretty easy to snipe from the sidelines...a bit different when you have skin in the game. What do ya got bud? Come on, back it up? What do ya got? You got game?

I know what I know...what do you know...back it up...prove us wrong...come on, you can do it!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 02:25:28 am by Schewe »
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 03:30:24 am »

So, what would YOU consider sharp?
I looked at your photos, I find them sharp
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 03:40:41 am »

Which reasons?

The only case I can see when you would not need any sharpening is if:

- You have a perfect lens
- No AA-filter
- Exact focus
- Large enough aperture to avoid diffraction
- Look at your images on an LCD screen, so you don't have diffusion on output

Best regards
Erik
for the first 4 points it is generally the case with MF camera

thanks
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2011, 04:40:15 am »

Hi,

I'd say that you may be a bit optimistic.

There seems to be significant sample variations between MF lenses. AF is essentially similar to DSLRs. Alignment between sensor, lens, AF, Mirror and ground glass is a problem with MF and also with DSLRs. Live view works around some of the problems.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

From what I have seen from images taken with Pentax 645D they seem to need about the same amount of sharpening as similar images from Nikon D3X. That comes as a surprise, because the Pentax 645D lacks AA-filter. On the other hand the Pentax 645D does have microlenses which act a bit into the same direction as the AA-filter. The microlenses increase the "fill factor", so the area between sensels will appear to be reduced. This counter acts aliasing.

Diffraction also affects MF, image quality is degraded when stopping down. It may be argued that MFDBs have larger sensor pitch and would therefore be less affected by diffraction, but most modern MFDBs seem to be in the 6 micron range, being very close to full frame DSLRs.

Even if you would have a perfect image it would need to be sharpened for output.

In my view, sharpening is an essential part of the digital workflow.

Best regards
Erik

for the first 4 points it is generally the case with MF camera

thanks
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 12:47:01 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Erick Boileau

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2011, 09:25:55 am »

Hi,

I'd say that you may be a bit optimistic.

There seems to be significant sample variations between MF lenses. AF is essentially similar to DSLRs. Alignment between sensor, lens, AF, Mirror and ground glass is a problem with MF and also with DSLRs. Live view works around some of the problems.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

From what I have seen from images taken with Pentax 645D they seem to need about the same amount of sharpening as similar images from Nikon D3X. That comes as a surprise, because the Pentax 645D lacks AA-filter. On the other hand the Pentax 645D does have microlenses which act a bit into the same direction as the AA-filter. The microlenses increase the "fill factor", so the area between sensels will appear to be reduced. This counter act aliasing.

Diffraction also affects MF, image quality is degraded when stopping down. It may be argued that MFDBs have larger sensor pitch and would therefore be less affected by diffraction, but most modern MFDBs seem to be in the 6 micron range, being very close to full frame DSLRs.

Even if you would have a perfect image it would need to be sharpened for output.

In my view, sharpening is an essential part of the digital workflow.

Best regards
Erik

with a P45 + Hasselblad H1 + HC 210 mm  I have never seen the necessity to sharpen, but I can be wrong of course
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DeeJay

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2011, 11:26:14 am »

The thing is, it depends on the image, the look and of corse it's all so subjective.

Even shooting on a P65+ with a 120mm at f11 on a Blad I still use sharpening to some degree to massage/enhance the detail. Although it's much less than what I'd push it to on a Canon, but just because there is alot more detail there doesn't mean it should, or you have to leave it alone.

I do believe that every image requires some kind of sharpening and particularly so when printing with certain outputs or resizing.

Offset printing requires more sharpening than what is considered normal, that is what I was trying to get to terms with here. It's hard to judge with the  monitors that we use and it was brushed on in the post here recently about softproofing.

Unfortunately extensive proofing is becoming harder to get clients to spring for, especially wet proofs are way too expensive for magazine productions. It litearlly means stopping the press while the proofs are evaluated and it costs big bickies. On top of all that, shooting 5 days a week makes it difficult to keep it all in check so I'm looking for some kind of ball parkformula, which in theory could exist -  I'm guessing some people out there have some kind of formula that works for them - ie. get it to how you want it to look and then add 30% with a radius of 1...or something, hence the post.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 11:38:33 am by DeeJay »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2011, 11:43:08 am »

Hi!

I still recommend Photokit Sharpener and/or the Fraser/Schewe book.

Best regards
Erik


The thing is, it depends on the image, the look and of corse it's all so subjective.

Even shooting on a P65+ with a 120mm at f11 on a Blad I still use sharpening to some degree to massage/enhance the detail. Although it's much less than what I'd push it to on a Canon, but just because there is alot more detail there doesn't mean it should, or you have to leave it alone.

I do believe that every image requires some kind of sharpening and particularly so when printing with certain outputs or resizing.

Offset printing requires more sharpening than what is considered normal, that is what I was trying to get to terms with here. It's hard to judge with the  monitors that we use and it was brushed on in the post here recently about softproofing.

Unfortunately extensive proofing is becoming harder to get clients to spring for, especially wet proofs are way too expensive for magazine productions. It litearlly means stopping the press while the proofs are evaluated and it costs big bickies. On top of all that, shooting 5 days a week makes it difficult to keep it all in check so I'm looking for some kind of ball parkformula, which in theory could exist -  I'm guessing some people out there have some kind of formula that works for them - ie. get it to how you want it to look and then add 30% with a radius of 1...or something, hence the post.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

BlasR

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2011, 01:04:49 pm »

I looked at your photos, I find them sharp
:D :D


I have a great day today.

anything else to laugh? :D
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BlasR
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2011, 06:47:39 pm »

There's something about this thread that made The Onion's current main story (here) resonate with me.

Jeremy
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #30 on: February 27, 2011, 07:08:40 pm »

There's something about this thread that made The Onion's current main story (here) resonate with me.

:-)

Cheers,
Bernard

DeeJay

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2011, 07:33:20 pm »

Cheers, will check it out!
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #32 on: February 27, 2011, 07:49:13 pm »

People, you do realize you are debating an anonymous, no-web site, 10-year old?  ;)

kers

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Re: Right amount of sharpening
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2011, 06:57:46 am »

my real age is 135...
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