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mrichter

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Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« on: January 12, 2011, 07:37:08 pm »
Greetings all. A question from a newbie to this forum:

I have the Mamiya DL28 with the Leaf Aptus-II 6 back, and despite everything I've tried, I can't get colors I like out of it. So far I've tried every profile in Leaf Capture and Capture one. I've tried Lightroom with the default profile as well as one generated with the Color Checker Passport. In all cases I'm fighting the same issue: weak greens. If I adjust the image for nice skintones, what should be blond hair becomes reddish, and what should be a green shirt becomes almost gray. I shot the same image with my old Fuji S2 in jpeg mode, and the colors look great.

I've attached a crop from each photo to demonstrate what I'm dealing with. The boy's shirt is much closer to the green color in the S2 image. Likewise, the sky in the background is supposed to have the green cast seen in the S2 image. Pardon the shadows on the background -- these were taken on a Virtual Background system that wasn't fully calibrated.
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yaya

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2011, 01:34:12 am »
Hi there,

I'm assuming that you are using a grey card of some sort?

My suggestion would be to cotact the support team (your dealer can also do it for you) through Leaf's website and to send us a RAW file or two, with a grey card in the frame so that we can provide proper advice

Best

Yair
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mrichter

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2011, 07:47:49 pm »
Yes, I was using the gray patch on the Color Checker Passport. I also experimented with the WB sliders, yet nothing can yield acceptable results. Here are some files for others to work with:
http://www.digipicsphoto.com/images/cameras/MamiyaDL28.mos
http://www.digipicsphoto.com/images/cameras/FujiS2.jpg

The first is the raw .mos file from the DL28, and the second is a camera jpeg from a Fuji S2. The colors of the S2 are what I'm trying to and can't achieve from the Mamiya. The Mamiya shows the hair, face, and shirt as almost the same hue when they are really much closer to the colors of the Fuji. Also, the bottom 2 gradients on the test chart fade to blue, not purple as they appear from the Mamiya. These issues have been present in varying degrees with every raw converter and profile I've tried with the Mamiya images, but I've included the raw file to see if anyone else can work some magic on it.
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ced

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 06:07:25 am »
A quick observation shows that you have not made the exact same Grey Balance and exposure on the 2 files.
The DL28 is far too light and out of GB the S2 is quite a bit darker overall without correct GB.
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ced

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 07:03:03 am »
Another point,  try to avoid the sRGB space in the S2 file while making these comparisons if print is final output...
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mrichter

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 01:37:04 pm »
Granted, I know that the S2 image is slightly off on the gray balance. This was done deliberately to obtain the degree of warmth I wanted. However, the X-rite target makes it easy enough to get an exact gray balance if you wish. For the raw file, I don't know what gray balance was embedded, but again, it's easy enough to use the target. My point is that with no gray balance settings can I make the colors from the Mamiya look like my target colors from the Fuji S2. I can find no way to make the Mamiya differentiate between the hue of the hair, face, and shirt like you see from the Fuji.

In regard to Srgb, I think that's rather irrelevant because the colors I'm having the biggest trouble with are well within gamut. Granted, I threw the bright green and blue colors on my test chart for good measure, but they aren't really what I'm concerned about at the moment.

And before anyone asks, yes, my monitor is profiled.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2011, 02:34:07 pm »
I looked at your raws you posted.

Product 5 HS (along with a white balance on a grey patch) seems to do a good job differentiating those colors in C1 6.

You're running into the essential problem of color: you can either have it accurate (those tones are differentiated) or pleasing (the skin tone looks nice). You can't have both (without per-image color retouching). At least with a good camera system and good software you can select amongst different profiles to strike the right balance between accuracy and pleasing.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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mrichter

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2011, 08:40:33 pm »
Ah, if only... accurate color or pleasing color. I'm getting neither. I tried the Product 5 HS profile in C1 6, and I can't seem to get the results you're describing. Perhaps you could post a jpeg sample with your processing, because what I'm getting is just like everything else I've tried: very little difference in hue of hair, face and shirt. The skin tones are an ugly orange-beige color with a neutral WB, and if I tweak it to make the skin look nice, the hair looks very odd indeed. Again, the S2 sample is somewhat my benchmark. It has pleasing color and is still fairly accurate, although a bit of extra saturation which I like. Adding saturation to the Mamiya images just makes everything related to a skin tone go orange.

One other interesting note: Thus far, the best results I've obtained have been with a custom profile from the Color Checker Passport in Lightroom. Even then, it still suffers from some of the color the issues that plague the other raw processing, namely the lack of hue differentiation in the skintone range. I tried this same Passport on a third camera, a Panasonic GH1, and the results are much closer to the Fuji.
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TMARK

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2011, 09:47:22 pm »
Is this your first CCD camera?  I ask because the backs, and the Leica M8/9/DMR, seem to handle color very differently than cmos cameras.  They are very sensitive to color, perhaps to the IR and near red of caucasian skin.  I looked at your RAW and could get a a result that is pleasing to me, but does not match the Fuji.  Photoshop would be the next step to match the Fuji. 

That being said, I have Leaf backs and get better results out of camera than your posted raw, although I've never looked at the Aptus 6.

Good luck with this.
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yaya

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 04:53:32 am »
Quote from: mrichter on January 14, 2011, 08:40:33 pm
Ah, if only... accurate color or pleasing color. I'm getting neither. I tried the Product 5 HS profile in C1 6, and I can't seem to get the results you're describing. Perhaps you could post a jpeg sample with your processing, because what I'm getting is just like everything else I've tried: very little difference in hue of hair, face and shirt. The skin tones are an ugly orange-beige color with a neutral WB, and if I tweak it to make the skin look nice, the hair looks very odd indeed. Again, the S2 sample is somewhat my benchmark. It has pleasing color and is still fairly accurate, although a bit of extra saturation which I like. Adding saturation to the Mamiya images just makes everything related to a skin tone go orange.

One other interesting note: Thus far, the best results I've obtained have been with a custom profile from the Color Checker Passport in Lightroom. Even then, it still suffers from some of the color the issues that plague the other raw processing, namely the lack of hue differentiation in the skintone range. I tried this same Passport on a third camera, a Panasonic GH1, and the results are much closer to the Fuji.

Started with LF2 Portrait 5 and tweaked it in the Color Editor:

Is this close enough to what you're trying to get?

The profile is also attached, you need to place it in the Colorsync profiles folder inside your user's library

Hope this helps

Yair


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ondebanks

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 12:23:50 pm »
I wish you wouldn't keep saying that your colour problems are from "the Mamiya". This is entirely a Leaf back issue.
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mrichter

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 02:07:49 pm »
Yair, now I really feel like a noob, but I can't seem to find the files you apparently posted.

Ondebanks, you have a valid point -- but then again, Mamiya is the one who chose to call the whole package the DL 28 ;-) I shall call it the Leaf from now on if that helps.

TMARK, my first CCD camera was the Fuji S1 back in 2000. Next was the S2. I kept the S2, but had a few others come and go along the way like the Nikon D2X and the Sigma SD9. So actually I've had more CCD cameras than otherwise.
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ced

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2011, 06:09:25 am »
By clicking on the link you have downloaded it somewhere on your system and you should make a search for "LeafAptusII6-Blonde_boy.icc" which is the profile that was posted.
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mrichter

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 11:49:50 am »
What I mean is that it appears I'm the only one who can't see a download link anywhere in that post.
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yaya

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Re: Mamiya DL28 Color Issues
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 12:41:30 pm »
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Luminous Landscape Forum > Equipment & Techniques > Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography > Mamiya DL28 Color Issues