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Author Topic: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras  (Read 56078 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2010, 05:14:02 pm »

Hi,

May be an MF system belongs on top of a tripod? Of course it can be used on free hand, especially with strobes, but to really utilize it fully I guess that tripod, MLU and cable release/self timer is needed. Even than, some MF systems may have problems with vibration from focal plane shutter.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, all true.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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LesPalenik

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2010, 05:22:05 pm »

Great.

So you've got to be a multi-squillionaire before you can even think about pretending to be even a vaguely competent landscape photographer....

Awesome.  Whatever.   
Actually, the situation is not that dire.

Both Hasselblad and Phase One companies offer now landscape-oriented photography workshops at a cost approximating a vacation in Hawaii. Well, the workshops are not really in Hawaii, but in desolate places like Iceland, Death Valley or Utah. But by not taking your wife to those awful places you may save enough to finance the purchase of the demo after completion of the workshop.

And for less than price of a trip to Cuba, you can get yourself a good copy of used Fuji 6x9 film camera with an excellent Fujinon lens and a great viewfinder. Or maybe a 4x5 camera.
 
   
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2010, 05:29:28 pm »

Actually, the situation is not that dire.

Both Hasselblad and Phase One companies offer now landscape-oriented photography workshops at a cost approximating a vacation in Hawaii. Well, the workshops are not really in Hawaii, but in desolate places like Iceland, Death Valley or Utah. But by not taking your wife to those awful places you may save enough to finance the purchase of the demo after completion of the workshop.

And for less than price of a trip to Cuba, you can get yourself a good copy of used Fuji 6x9 film camera with an excellent Fujinon lens and a great viewfinder. Or maybe a 4x5 camera.
 
   

I sense some wry humour here, but just in case you are serious, let me disabuse our readers of the notion that Iceland, DV or Utah are "desolate". They are photographic gems. And let me also re-assure the readers, you can take your wife on multiples of these trips before the cost will approach buying a Phase One kit. The wife, for a change, is the bargain in the package! Trust me - been there, done that! :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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David Mantripp

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2010, 05:43:38 pm »

First sentence above: no it doesn't.

Second sentence above: have you had the experience of doing it? What print sizes? What viewing distance? What kind of subject matter? What lighting? Time to get a bit more scientific if you want to tell us what people are unlikely to notice.

Third sentence: that may be your problem, but not necessarily everyones'.

Fourth sentence: Who's the "we" suffering from "technolust"? Certainly not Mr. Dubovoy - he clearly evaluates why he buys what he buys, HAS the equipment and using it, so nothing to lust over in that quarter.


First point: well, I would say that is subjective and a matter of opinion.  But I hardly think that the idea that a leaning towards the technology could be detrimental to the artistic quality of output is controversial.  I'm neither claiming that it applies to the author, nor anybody else specific.  But then again I'm not claiming the opposite.

Second point: oh purleeeze......  99% of the viewing populace react emotionally to photography and other visual art. They don't analyse the boke(h) or whatever else. Science has nothing to do with it.  This is the point where the conversation gets mind-numbingly tedious.

Third point: I'm not sure you quite get the point I'm making here...  never mind.

Fourth point: Please don't try to pin an ad hominen attack on me, especially I went out of my way to avoid it.


Whatever. I guess if $50,000 camera systems don't seem just a touch ridiculous to you, we don't live in the same world.
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David Mantripp

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2010, 05:44:49 pm »


And for less than price of a trip to Cuba, you can get yourself a good copy of used Fuji 6x9 film camera with an excellent Fujinon lens and a great viewfinder. Or maybe a 4x5 camera.
 
   

well yeah. Exactly.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2010, 05:52:07 pm »

First point: well, I would say that is subjective and a matter of opinion.  But I hardly think that the idea that a leaning towards the technology could be detrimental to the artistic quality of output is controversial.  I'm neither claiming that it applies to the author, nor anybody else specific.  But then again I'm not claiming the opposite.

Second point: oh purleeeze......  99% of the viewing populace react emotionally to photography and other visual art. They don't analyse the boke(h) or whatever else. Science has nothing to do with it.  This is the point where the conversation gets mind-numbingly tedious.

Third point: I'm not sure you quite get the point I'm making here...  never mind.

Fourth point: Please don't try to pin an ad hominen attack on me, especially I went out of my way to avoid it.


Whatever. I guess if $50,000 camera systems don't seem just a touch ridiculous to you, we don't live in the same world.

David, I refrain from Ad Hominem attacks and there is nothing Ad Hominem in my 4th point.

I don't own a 50,000 dollar camera system because I really don't think I'd get value for money from it for what I do, so I won't make the financial sacrifice, but whether it's ridiculous or not is a completely subjective matter. I think 500,000 diamonds are ridiculous because all they do is glitter, but that's me. There are other people who obviously put immense value on them because they buy them and support those prices. Same with the cameras. Purely subjective what price is "ridiculous".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PierreVandevenne

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2010, 05:52:53 pm »

To avoid repetition I'll just say I agree with Bernard 100%.
The article does sound like a commercial only that the images are not good enough for one.

Some very nice images on your site Luis!

We should be thankful you aren't aware that you are using the wrong tool.  ;D
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LesPalenik

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2010, 05:57:03 pm »

I sense some wry humour here, but just in case you are serious, let me disabuse our readers of the notion that Iceland, DV or Utah are "desolate".
They are photographic gems.

So was my wife. So I thought. Now, I wish I had bought that MF equipment while I was still married.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 06:18:44 pm by LesPalenik »
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David Mantripp

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2010, 06:03:38 pm »

Well, so far you don't seem to have mastered NOT sounding like you've got a bad case of sour grapes. Who has the "technolust"? You? Sure sounds like it...

Really ? No, but really ?  I've no idea where you got that from.  My spending on gear is minimal, I just wish I had the time and aptitude to fully master what I have.  Perhaps my point was too off topic, but I don't think it was invalid.

I guess you missed the part of the article where Mark mentioned that cameras, lenses and backs are simply tools. There are a wide range of tools available to make digital images. Some people are willing to go to great extremes in the pursuit of image quality. Others aren't. Does that make either camp less of a photographer? Not necessarily. Using a MFDB doesn't make you a better photographer and using a DSLR doesn't make you a worse one.

Well I'd certainly be willing to own a Leica S2 system....  but "willing", sadly isn't enough.  But I'm under NO illusions that an S2 would make me a better photographer, although I guess it might help me produce more detailed A2 prints.  And surely you're not going to deny that IQ does not increase linearly with spend....

The question really boils down to what you, as the photographer, want your images to look like. Your own tastes and image demands will dictate the tools. Heck, I've got a P65+ but on a recent trip some of my favorite shots (and arguably better images) were done with an S90 point and shoot. Will that keep me from carrying the P65+ on future trips? Nope...but to be sure I'll also bring the S90 too. Some times I'll also shoot with the 1Ds MIII. Heck, I have lots of tools...I just try to use the correct tool for the job.

Well without wanting in any way (you're just gonna have to take my work on this) to make this personal, I think what I'm questioning is to what extent the technology tail is wagging the photographic dog.....  I'd really like to see the pendulum swing back to discussing making better photos as opposed to buying "better" cameras, but as I'm sure you're ready to point out, nobody's stopping me starting my own web site....
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2010, 06:15:03 pm »

I'd really like to see the pendulum swing back to discussing making better photos as opposed to buying "better" cameras, but as I'm sure you're ready to point out, nobody's stopping me starting my own web site....

For those still interested in optimizing the usage of existing equipment to maximize its value in order to achieve an artistic intend www.bythom.com is a valuable reference (whether you shoot Nikon or not).

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2010, 06:20:02 pm »

thank you for graciously sharing the stitching.com link. This gives a new meaning to stitching. And some more tangible results. I will submit it to my local camera club's Valuable Resource Links section.

I am sure they'll love it.

www.stitching.com is another proof that very high image quality doesn't have to be expensive and remains, above all, a craft. I believe that MF owners might benefit from it as much as Coolpix 773 lovers.

Cheers,
Bernard

LesPalenik

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2010, 06:34:42 pm »

I am sure they'll love it.

www.stitching.com is another proof that very high image quality doesn't have to be expensive and remains, above all, a craft. I believe that MF owners might benefit from it as much as Coolpix 773 lovers.

Cheers,
Bernard

Thats' very true. However, I worry that some posters may find them soft.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2010, 07:06:15 pm »


........................ I think what I'm questioning is to what extent the technology tail is wagging the photographic dog.....  I'd really like to see the pendulum swing back to discussing making better photos as opposed to buying "better" cameras, but as I'm sure you're ready to point out, nobody's stopping me starting my own web site....

David, let's face it - photography has always been a delicious mixture of fascination with gear and fascination with the image. There are plenty of sections in this Discussion Forum for discussing both, not one to the detriment of the other. This is a thread largely about what gear does for the technical attributes of an image. If you want to discuss making better photos from a purely artistic perspective, head down the list of Sections here.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Schewe

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2010, 07:36:44 pm »

Well without wanting in any way (you're just gonna have to take my work on this) to make this personal, I think what I'm questioning is to what extent the technology tail is wagging the photographic dog.....

Who wags the tail?

Yes, I know it's easy to complain that technology seems to drive (wag) advances in photography...but the fact remains, it's up to YOU to choose what YOU do. Nobody is holding a gun to your head demanding some sort of specific behavior. Right? If there is, let us know and we'll try to free you...might take a black ops team to pull you out of Switzerland...on the other hand, the Swiss seem pretty "neutral" to me...

Complaining about what other people use to create their own images is really kinda sick. It means that you pay far too much attention to the technology and far less to the images. Is that your fault? I don't know...I do know that "process" seems to be far more important these days that the "old days" when you were judged by the print you hung on a wall. What goes into the "creation" of an image means little to nothing to me. I've spent a lot of time (and been paid a ton of cash) to create images for clients...I no longer care to do that stuff and only shoot what I want to the way I want to. I care nothing about what OTHER people think of either my work or me, personally...I really only care about friends and family and to a large extent, what I think. Do I like an image? Is it worth spending any time on? Is it worth actually putting ink on paper to make a print? Which camera and what I did (or didn't do) to create the image is meaningless. What camera I used is meaningless. What "technique" I used in Camera Raw/Lightroom/Photoshop is meaningless. All I ultimately care about is the image.

The fact that some people in this thread seem fixated on the tools really only plays into what Mark was talking about. These things are tools...use them or don't use them. But you really, really shouldn't fixate on the tools.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2010, 07:51:29 pm »

The fact that some people in this thread seem fixated on the tools really only plays into what Mark was talking about. These things are tools...use them or don't use them. But you really, really shouldn't fixate on the tools.

Jeff,

Agreed 100% that tools are not the most important part, but the negative reactions in this thread are mostly about Mark's comment that the usage of a given type of tools (MFDB) defines high quality in landscape photography.

He is the one focusing on tools and commenting negatively on what other people do using his authority as one of the officials at LL.

The only way to counter this is to join him in his discussion of tools.

Cheers,
Bernard

JohnBrew

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2010, 08:11:49 pm »

Bernard, when I click on your link for stitching I get a needlepoint website. What's up with that?

Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2010, 08:27:58 pm »

Jeff,

Agreed 100% that tools are not the most important part, but the negative reactions in this thread are mostly about Mark's comment that the usage of a given type of tools (MFDB) defines high quality in landscape photography.

He is the one focusing on tools and commenting negatively on what other people do using his authority as one of the officials at LL.

The only way to counter this is to join him in his discussion of tools.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard, these comments made me wonder whether we read the same article so I went back to review it. I don't see that he's done anything like what you say here.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PierreVandevenne

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2010, 08:43:15 pm »

Possibly because the article began by

"This article is a compilation of a number of personal thoughts about photographic tools."

and uses the word "tools" 18 additional times (and "tool" 4 times).

If it wasn't about tools, what was it about?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 08:45:27 pm by PierreVandevenne »
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Rajan Parrikar

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2010, 09:10:28 pm »

Has Mark Dubovoy said or implied that photographs made with 'lesser' cameras constitute inferior photography, or that great photographic work cannot be done with these 'lesser' bodies?  If yes, where?  If not, what is this Sturm und Drang all about?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:13:05 pm by Rajan Parrikar »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Thoughts on Medium Format Cameras
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2010, 09:16:18 pm »

Possibly because the article began by

"This article is a compilation of a number of personal thoughts about photographic tools."

and uses the word "tools" 18 additional times (and "tool" 4 times).

If it wasn't about tools, what was it about?

Of course he is focusing on tools, because it is a discussion mainly about fitting tools to intent and what the tools do and don't do. So? Is there a problem with this?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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