Adobe Color Printer Utility

[digitaldog]

It is not the ColorSync button that is the problem, it is what the Main/Color Mode setting is. If it defaults to "No Color Correction" them no color management is performed by the driver/os. If it defaults to Color then color management is performed by the driver/os.

In ACPU, Main/Color Mode, its grayed out but the popup is set to Color. In CS5, its grayed out but set to No Color Correction. Odd. I haven’t do anything to the app’s or driver yet the two produce these two grayed out and different options.

[digitaldog]

Are you sure you don't have Printer Manages Color selected?
You just said it was grayed out in the post before.

Photoshop Manages Color its grayed out with ColorSync selected. Printer Manages Color its not grayed out but defaults to ColorSync. I’ve not done anything so far with Printer Manages Color.

[Rhossydd]

Is the ACPU working correctly in Windoze 7 64 bit? I have a new Epson 3880 and have not ordered custom profiles yet - waiting on this situation to resolve.

See my comments in the thread above;
ACPU prints colour correctly in Windows 7 64bt from my tests here, but it resizes and repositions the target on the page which isn't very helpful.

If you only have CS5 to print from, ACPU should be acceptable to custom print profilers, it is to us now we've done the tests ;-)

Paul
www.colourprofiles.com

[probep]

We tested Adobe Color Printer Urility not only versus "No Color Management" option in PSCS3 and "Null transform technique" in PSCS5, but also versus "Printer Manages Colors" option (color management in the print driver is also disabled) in PSCS3/PSCS5.
There are no color differences between all of them!
But ACPU v1.0 is the most uncomfortable on Windows platform.
Therefore some people prefer to use "Printer Manages Colors" option - It is included in all versions of Photoshop.

Printers tested: Canon Pro9500, Epson R2880, Epson 3800, Epson 11880.
Platform: Windows XP and Windows 7. Some tests (NCM vs PMC) were also done on Snow Leopard MacOS.

[digitaldog]

I consider this acceptable for the purposes of assessing whether CS4, CS5, and ACPU are all producing the same results. This is because if I print the same page twice from the same app (i.e., 2 copies from the same app), I get the same measurement results. In other words, the difference between printing a target from CS4 (+workaround) and ACPU in my config is no greater than the difference between the target twice from CS4.

Its greater for me but not by a large amount. Its odd that the differences show up in different locations within color space which is another reason I’m suspect. I guess we could say the various utilities are close enough but they are not as close as I’d have expected. That they use different print paths may make this easier to accept.

The real distinction is likely the target and its resolution (in pixels/inch).

Well in terms of resolution, it does appear that this affects the so called scaling of the target (really more the position of the image on the target). When you resample using Nearest Neighbor say 2X up or down, do you see a shift on the page (and a very small difference in scaling) as reported on the ColorSync list?

[digitaldog]

We tested Adobe Color Printer Urility not only versus "No Color Management" option in PSCS3 and "Null transform technique" in PSCS5...

When testing the Null transform technique did you use Adobe RGB (1998)? If you use sRGB instead, do you find a difference (higher delta’s in green)?

[probep]

We used Adobe RGB.

[digitaldog]

OK so here are some numbers from measuring targets printed from PS CS4, ACPU, ID & Qimage on a Windows 7 64 bit system
Looking at the figures there is no significance colour difference between all four program's output(just ACPU resizing the targets). Any differences could be down to measurement and printer accuracy.

Ideally we’d be comparing apples to apples and you’d have used the larger TC918 target. Can you provide the max dE values from your tests?

[digitaldog]

We used Adobe RGB.

If you can, would you try sRGB on the Epson 38XX. If you get the same results as Chris and I, it would point to an issue that could resolve a number of issues.

[Rhossydd]

Ideally we’d be comparing apples to apples and you’d have used the larger TC918 target.

Gee thanks, I spent quite a long time doing this. The 9.18 charts would have taken more than three times as long!
Easy with as iSis, but a lot of graft with an Eye1 measuring in strip mode.

Do you think the extra patches would make that much, any?, difference to the general conclusions ?

Can you provide the max dE values from your tests?

Max dE
1.77, 1.31, 1.53, 1.18

Worst 10%
1.08, 0.72, 0.91, 0.68

[digitaldog]

1.77, 1.31, 1.53, 1.18

Measurement accuracy, comparing two passes of same target;you got 1.77? Ouch. That’s the worst of the group.

Do you think the extra patches would make that much, any?, difference to the general conclusions ?

It could yes. Kind of depends on what colors used within each target is or is not being measured. It makes a difference in the Avg dE of course but I’m not looking as closely here as the max dE.

[madmanchan]

Andrew, I do see a shifting in placement (i.e., a translation, but not a scale). No idea why.

[digitaldog]

Andrew, I do see a shifting in placement (i.e., a translation, but not a scale). No idea why.

I think I know why but I would never want to piss off Dave (he’s a big guy, I’m not).

If the page (not scale) shifting is large enough, then we iSis users are screwed, the black triangles are cut off and the iSis barfs. I think a 1.01 version might be needed unless we are told what PPI setting for the targets we need to hit.

[Rhossydd]

Measurement accuracy, comparing two passes of same target;you got 1.77? Ouch.

No that's the max dE between CS4 & ACPU targets

For measurement accuracy on the same targets;
max dE = 0.70, 0.94, 0.56, 0.83
Worst 10% = 0.37, 0.41, 0.31, 0.40

[digitaldog]

No that's the max dE between CS4 & ACPU targets

For measurement accuracy on the same targets;
max dE = 0.70, 0.94, 0.56, 0.83
Worst 10% = 0.37, 0.41, 0.31, 0.40

Ah OK, I saw the order of your original reports and this new order and figured they matched. So highest dE was CS4 vs. ACPU which is also what I found. What about the order of the other max dEs?
For max dE accuracy on same target, again that seems the most reasonable (and what I’d like to see from all apps more or less).

[Doyle Yoder]

In ACPU, Main/Color Mode, its grayed out but the popup is set to Color. In CS5, its grayed out but set to No Color Correction. Odd. I haven’t do anything to the app’s or driver yet the two produce these two grayed out and different options.

I figured that is what would be happening. That is because CS5 is listed in the AppColorMatchingInfo.xml file and ACPU is not. Anytime the Main/Color Mode, setting is grayed out and the popup is set to Color you are getting a profile conversion with ACPU in the driver/os. Depending on what that profile is you may or may not notice it, so if you want to test this, use different media settings (especially ones that are listed in the ColorSync Utility the have a corresponding profile) and see if it changes the printed target noticeably.

Or you can avoid wasting any time on this and add the ACPU to Canon AppColorMatchingInfo.xml so that ACPU will be set to No Color Correction just like CS5 and you can be sure that the driver/os is not converting to a profile when printing from ACPU to the iPF6300.

[Rhossydd]

So highest dE was CS4 vs. ACPU which is also what I found. What about the order of the other max dEs?

You're a hard task master Mr Rodney  

max dE between PS CS4 - Qimage is 1.00, for CS4 - ID CS4 is 1.14

Not sure if anyone would want to print profiling targets from InDesign anyway, this may be a bit of a distraction.

[digitaldog]

Anytime the Main/Color Mode, setting is grayed out and the popup is set to Color you are getting a profile conversion with ACPU in the driver/os. Depending on what that profile is you may or may not notice it, so if you want to test this, use different media settings (especially ones that are listed in the ColorSync Utility the have a corresponding profile) and see if it changes the printed target noticeably.

First, I’ll certainly try fixing this setting for APCU but I’m confused about the statement Depending on what that profile is you may or may not notice it. The target is untagged and I have no profile selection for ACPU so I’m confused. I’m also somewhat confused by the current behavior as CS5 and ACPU produce some of the best measurement correlation of all my tests so far:

CS5 vs. ACPU:
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.16
    Max dE:   0.79
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.10

Best 90% - (836 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.14
    Max dE:   0.29
    Min dE:   0.01
 StdDev dE:   0.07

Worst 10% - (94 colors)
--------------------------------------------------
Average dE:   0.37
    Max dE:   0.79
    Min dE:   0.29
 StdDev dE:   0.09

--------------------------------------------------
Very similar to the results on the Epson with good correlation of the two apps, low max dE. For reference, on the 3880, the dE was: Average dE:   0.19 Max dE:   0.72

[digitaldog]

Not sure if anyone would want to print profiling targets from InDesign anyway, this may be a bit of a distraction.

Well the point is, the various app’s should behave the same way (in a prefect world).

[Doyle Yoder]

First, I’ll certainly try fixing this setting for APCU but I’m confused about the statement Depending on what that profile is you may or may not notice it. The target is untagged and I have no profile selection for ACPU so I’m confused. I’m also somewhat confused by the current behavior as CS5 and ACPU produce some of the best measurement correlation of all my tests so far:

Very similar to the results on the Epson with good correlation of the two apps, low max dE. For reference, on the 3880, the dE was: Average dE:   0.19 Max dE:   0.72

Go back and read my post #70.

If printing to your Epson is not double profiling with CS4, CS5 or LR, then I think your good to go. But from the Canon if the Color Mode is defaulted to Color then there is a profile conversion going on and I would not trust any target printed that way.