You can't do That with medium format

[jeremypayne]

, but that is different to repeatedly trying to convince people who have MF kit, or are thinking of getting into MF, that it is a waste of money and space.

Obviously, the irony in this post escaped you ...

[Alex MacPherson]

Like your pictures, Alex, especially the black/whites!

Rob C

Thank you Rob

[ondebanks]

John-S, I loved your mall musings. A great entertaining read on an easy-like-Sunday-morning. You, at least, are a definite asset to this forum.

Ray (the other Ray, as I keep saying unnecessarily).

[ondebanks]

Quote from: ondebanks on October 14, 2010, 03:24:12 PM
This forum is not reserved for professionals. Read the rubric.

The forum title suggests the discussion is supposed to be about Digital Backs .
What can someone without DB experience possibly contribute ?

And there you go again. You have assumed that an amateur (let's try to put the "gear whore" moniker behind us, shall we?) cannot possibly have "DB experience".

I am an amateur. I shoot with a DB (and with film). There's no law against it, you know.

And - what's more - even before I had "DB experience", as I researched them I realised that I patently had more technical knowledge about them than some folks who do shoot with them. But that's fine; for many people, photography is business or art and the technical stuff doesn't really concern them. I really take to it though. My job is as a university physics & astronomy lecturer (what you'd call a "professor" in the States), so I take a strong technical interest in sensor and camera performance, specifications and calibration. I guess what I'm saying here is that I am rejecting the notion that unless you have hands-on DB experience, you can contribute nothing to a technical discussion about them. That just isn't the case.

[john milich]

nice mall rant

[JohnBrew]

Talent has a lot less to do with success in the word of pro photography than many people think. A competent photographer with an excellent business brain will do far better than the converse. The 'Pro' bit of the title refers to 'business' not creativity, talent, flair, mojo or whatever.

I have absolutely no fear of talent - I see heaps of this in the club competitions that I judge.

Right on, Nick!

[Paintress]

finally you got it: MFD is only for real men

Hi - I'm new here but actually don't feel like it, because I've been following the discussions (especially about MF) for a long time. After two weeks of extensive research my head was about to explode - this morning I read your statement and the tension was gone. Maybe you're right and I would feel a lot more comfortable accepting this fact and giving up my dream of a MF camera system.

However, some dreams become very persistant, and this one did. So I've decided to jump into the discussion, ask all of you for help and opinion and maybe become a real man in the end.  

Uh - and I beg for tolerance - I have difficulties sorting out all the technical terms in my mother-tongue (German), and my English is heavily influenced by French. So if I sound somewhat strange please don't blame women in general.

I'm mainly in portrait photography - humans, animals and sometimes products. And to put my position straight right from the beginning: I'm a firm believer in the relationship of image size and image quality. Thus I resisted to go digital until the full frame EOS D5 was available. Meantime I used a Linhof 5x4`` and Polaroid P/N, because I had realized that people become more relaxed when they see some shots during the session. And I experimented with a Nagel plate camera with roll-film adapter, Agfa Isolettes and other cheap cameras, even Boxes. Lot's of fun and an important experience for a (then still) girl. These old cameras gave me the confidence that photography finally is not that complicated at all.
For example I started manual focussing with my ever-so-mighty 5D and she allowed me to do so.

On the other hand I learned that equipment is important, too. Is a Mac a gear? Two years ago I fought my fears and bought my first Mac. What fears? I can't recall them, because the experience was liberation at it's best.

To those who might want to keep me in the loyal 35mm troops - I will stay there with my 5D. But I've observed that some have a full format, like me. If the difference between APS 35mm and full frame 35mm counts, the difference between MF and 35mm is even larger, right? For me, it's not the size or resolution numbers, that count. There are two factors, that are relevant for my personal photography: the dynamic range of 12 f-stops and the bokeh.

So two weeks ago I finally decided to go for a MF camera system. This market has become very limited, in fact only two real competitors and you might assume it's easy to sort out which product best meets your needs. But it only proofs that poor competitions results in poor performance. I don't mean the quality of the product (even though I grew suspicious by what I saw), but the information policy.

I'd like to scream now... This is an investment like buying a car. No car dealer, even of the cheapest, lousiest (bitemytongue - no nationality attached) carriage would dare an information policy that leads a potential customer into total confusion. I'm NOT blonde.

I started to gather all available information in a spread-sheet which I nearly deleted yesterday evening, due to frustration. There are few dealers of digital backs, few datasheet available and the data-sheet are not comparable. Phase One tells me about longtime exposure while there are no exposure times available in the datasheet of Leaf. Same applies (I think vice versa) for power supply or the screen size. One German dealer has the best version of datasheet - look for what's missing and you know the weekness of the product. Prices? Not comparable neither. It takes years to figure out which lense is just OEM'd and more expensive because another label sticks on it. I thought I was blonde, until yesterday evening I realized that one and the same digital back of the same dealer started at 50 ASA in own city and 100 ASA in another city. Does it really matter? I'm not looking for a super-bargain but I do want to know whether the product I'm buying is worth its price.

I know what they're aiming at - I should contact them and wooops - my dream will become true and I'll stick with them forever. Sounds like a marriage. But I have difficulties contacting someone who sells cars with websites not updated, products not consistently presented and whose information policy whispers: we don't care. Or maybe they just don't want me to become a real man?

So I thought the only way to be sure I make the right decision is to ask you. Shall I at all? Besides the dynamic range and bokeh I could reactivate my Linhof. I'm not afraid of tripods, on the contrary, they belong to us - me and my EOS 5D.

What I love, however is Tilt and Shift. If I invest in a MF system, I want an adapter. Mamiya so far is the only one where I found it, but with recommended lenses I couldn't find anywhere. And with manual focussing. If Autofocus is so slow or unreliable, do I really need it at all?

I love waist level finders and agree that people feel less 'shot' with it. After years with my 80-200mm 2,8 Canon lense my shoulder would be grateful for a different position, too.

So - these are my first rants and I'll be more grateful for any input.

[Rob C]

Paintress

First of all, welcome aboard, though you may eventually think you were better off swimming.

I would imagine that your best bet would be to stay with FF 35mm and buy yourself the set of Tilt/Shift lenses, see if they do give you the quality you need, and then, only then, buy into larger digital bodies if you find from experience that 35mm can't cut it.

Somebody I know in Australia has a background in 8x10 and also 4x5 and 120 film, has a 35mm digital for much of his work, but still finds his personal heaven with sheet film. I think he has spent a lot of money running around in equipment circles.

If you are really, really German, how can you not be blonde? All the ones I see in Mallorca are!

Rob C

[tho_mas]

What I love, however is Tilt and Shift. If I invest in a MF system, I want an adapter.

I love waist level finders

waist level finder & Tilt/Swing/Shift...?
Hasselblad bodies do have removable finders and of course there is also a waist level finder.
They provide the "HTS"-adapter for tilt+swing+shift on the H-bodis. The adapter magnifies the focal length by factor 1.5.
(leaf shutter system)

The Contax also provides a waist level finder. As the system is discontinued it's a bit harder to find a waist level finder.
You could use a Zörk adapter in conjunction with a Pentax 6x7 format lens on the Contax or a Hartblei Super Rotator lens... but I am not sure about the quality of these lenses.
(focal plane shutter system)

Finally also the Hy6 provides a waist level finder but I don't know about tilt/swing/shift lenses.
(leaf shutter system)

As to the digital backs it would be helpful to outline the features you need... so do you need for instance somewhat higher frame rates, usable mid-ISO or super low base ISO, wide angle (i.e. a larger or a smaller sensor plane)... etc.
The long exposure capability of the Phase backs you've mentioned above only apply to the previous generation of Phase back with Kodak sensors (P21, P30, P25, P45). All the other backs of all makers (including the P40 and P65) are more or less limited to 30''-1'... resp. a few minutes (for instance the H4D40 can do 4 or 5 minutes or so AFAIK).

[Paintress]

Wow - three answers already and I thought you were all asleep over there (time lag).

Rob, my 90mm T+S is the reason I love T+S. If you don't mind, I'll upload two examples to show how I use it, pictures tell more than words. I tilt, turn it about 22 degrees and shoot at f2,8. With the small viewfinder it's extremely difficult to control (or even smell) the area of sharpness.

Staying with film is an option, if I'm able to reactivate my huge Jobo machine. Two years ago she started to smoke, the repair man (I hope he's still working) told me I was lucky she didn't go up in flames. Since then she doesn't smoke anymore, but the films look only half developped. I changed chemistry, cameras, films but then gave up. It felt a bit like having spent two weeks with my Windows PC in order to make the printer accept Fine Art Paper.

And the German girls you meet in Mallorca - are you sure they're true blondes? If so, Dutch sounds very similar to German. 

Keith, Phase One told me: "We will contact you as soon as possible to arrange your Phase One demo." on October 14th. Of course I will test before I buy. When I last bought a car, I could do the first selection online, get an idea about what is actually offered and what is really important for me and then the four remaining candidates were all within a thirty minutes drive range from my home. I contacted them via their websites (which were up to date) and they reacted within one day. I'm not planning to run across Germany in order to test half of what is available and then still have the feeling that the lense of my dreams is waiting for me in a non-updated website. When I find it I'll realize I'm stuck with the wrong system. I knew that Hasselblad was expensive and many Mamiya fans produced equal results. But after the little consistent results of my research I'm not sure whether it's more expensive to step into a Mamiya system in the long run. At this level I don't want any lense lying around to gather dust. Not even if it's included in a package and seems to cost nothing. I also would like to know who manufactured a lense before spending my time on testing it.

tho_mas - thank you very much for the information. Concerning the features I need, I'm not yet determined. First because within MF there are natural restrictions that I'm ready to accept, if the rest is worth it. Second because I'll still have my working EOS and Linhof to do what the MF can't.

Some criteria only become important in real life. For example the reason I went for full format initially was the Tilt and Shift. At that time it took me more than two weeks to figure out what APS format would mean for my lenses. The 5D is said to be slow, my German photographer friends (all had gone for the D1) were so convincing that I had stayed away from certain topics for a long time. Now I'm doing horses and just for fun went to photograph a hockey game (field hockey inside, not ice hockey). It worked, but I'm aware it only worked because I've grown accustomed to my camera's behaviour. Until then Super ISO rates never were an issue for me, but thanks to horses and hockey I discovered the ability of my camera at ASA 800.

After all I've understood, a resolution of above 40 MP is not necessary for what I want, I'm fairly sure that 30MP will be more than enoough. Unless I've overseen an aspect concerning my Linhof. 

Wide Angle (as to yet) play a minor role. No architecture, no landscape. I'm quite confused with the translation of focal lenghts. My favorites for portrait were a 100mm Macro and the 70-200mm Zoom. According to a Phase One translator, 100mm would mean 161mm in a 645 system (Hasselblad H1), 183mm for 6x6 (Hasselblad V) or 211mm for 6x7 (Pentax). I don't get what this means for the actual photo. The difference between 6x6 and 6x7 is that I have some more space (1cm) on one axis, but shouldn't the rest of the picture be the same? And now I'm starting to go in circles: What lense will I put on a Pentax 6x7 with a 645 back? I think the focal length should be oriented at the limiting 4,5 cm, wrong?

Enough, I'm starving and hope I don't forget to heat the water before I throw in the Spagetti. Thank you all very much for answering!

[BrendanStewart]

Sounds like the Hasselblad H4D31 is just right for your needs. I switched from the 5D to the 5DII, and now own the H3DII31 (No longer for sale), the H4D31 replaced it. It's a fantastic camera and has all the abilities you need. Price is said to be around $9995. Euro.  Hard to beat that. The Hasselblad system is also very easy to understand. It's a closed system and everything works together very well.

.02

[pcunite]

Sounds like the Hasselblad H4D31 is just right for your needs. I switched from the 5D to the 5DII, and now own the H3DII31 (No longer for sale), the H4D31 replaced it. It's a fantastic camera and has all the abilities you need. Price is said to be around $9995. Euro.  Hard to beat that. The Hasselblad system is also very easy to understand. It's a closed system and everything works together very well.

I agree, to the OP, if you're dead-set on getting MFD for its mythical qualities, Hasselblad H4D whatever is the way to go.

[tho_mas]

After all I've understood, a resolution of above 40 MP is not necessary for what I want, I'm fairly sure that 30MP will be more than enoough. Unless I've overseen an aspect concerning my Linhof. 

if I understand correctly you are planing to use the digiback also on the Linhof?
In this case you definitely should not consider a digiback with a microlensed sensor. On a view-/tech camera the lenses are very close to the sensor and the microlenses of the respective digibacks will produce heavy light falloff and color shift with large movements (i.e. tilt/swing/shift). So definitely no H-31, H-40, P21 or P30... Any other back without microlenses will do fine.
 

[pcunite]

if I understand correctly you are planing to use the digiback also on the Linhof?
In this case you definitely should not consider a digiback with a microlensed sensor. 

Oops, yes, good catch...

[KevinA]

Is the article and post not missing the biggest point? I mean we are judging a photograph by it's technical content and not it's artistic content. Don't we all know which gear is better suited to certain jobs, sure we can file the corners off the square peg and hammer it into the round hole, or hey why not get a round peg or a square hole and stop f arting around.

Kevin.

[Paintress]

Keith - maybe it's a misunderstanding, I never intented to take a decision after only two weeks. I just never experienced that a two weeks' research resulted in my being more confused than before. And in increasing my fears and doubts. A new addition to my fears is the fact that I've been trying to open the website of Hasselblad Germany for five hours and nothing comes up. I know this phenomenon from last week - at that time it was Phase One. At first I thought my internet connection is weak, but I started opening Canon or Luminous Landscape and other websites and they work. Maybe they want me to buy a new car?

While waiting for Hasselblad I tried a pack of Polaroid films, valid until 02/02. They were not stored in the fridge, because the fridge had broken down one day and the moment I discovered this, all films were destroyed. So I kept the ones I had planned for immediate use and still have nine packs of this one. I was so amazed and happy of the results that I nearly forgot about MFD. But then my stomach told me it was going to turn upside down and it took me half an hour in very fresh (and cold) air to persuade him to stay balanced. Good Lord, they do smell. My entire system screemed for going digital.

Fights on a personal level are not my cup of tea, thus I don't want to say more than that I'm quite resistant to mythical believing when photography is concerned. Too many very expensive wrong decisions. I have an old Hasselblad in my studio, used it several times and never really became attached to it. My EOS 5D had to wait a year until it became my constant companion, I'm aware it can take time. Maybe my lacking fire with the Hasselblad is because of the lenses I have along with the body - a wide angle and a 80mm.

Well, these are emotional factors that I will have to check by testing. But forgive me if I now state that the No-1-treasure to me is tho_mas. I'm establishing a flow-chart according to his information and whenever I find a website of Hasselblad without having to learn Swedish, the choice can be narrowed down and I will have to spend less time testing without even guessing what will go wrong in the end.

Kevin - I agree that in the end it's the photograph and nothing else that we should judge. With Photoshop we don't need an expensive camera at all nowadays. Shoot and then start the real artistic work in PS. One photographer on Flickr nearly tricked me into buying the equipment he had until I realized that his Nikkon performed just as well as his MF camera. His city had amazingly clean trains or buses, all the people on his photographs were amazingly perfect. The great fascinating world of PS is not appropriate when you make a living from portrait photography. Been there, done it - gave it up very soon. My clients see themselves in the mirror every morning. They know who they are. A potential employer knows what he sees and we've trained them to look for the difference between reality and the photograph.

My aim is not to create the finest image that ever was shot in my category. I don't want to send anyone to a surgeon, I want to tell them that they have a unique personality and we (my camera system and me) are grateful we were allowed to witness and communicate this unique trait. It's not about me, it's not about the camera, it's about the customer. BUT, very big but - I'm not aware of any successfull artist in whatever discipline who didn't mind about his tools. The article you disliked is of great information to me. I've followed this forum long enough to have an idea about what these writers are able to accomplish. Long enough to have a certain feeling that you were persuaded by the technical details. There are tons of websites with technical tests I'll never understand in my life - let them have it. Counting lines or pixels and being able to reproduce the most realistic colour is not my aim. I'm grateful for reviews like this article - by people who don't rely on PS (you can do a lot with it, that's why I refrained from it) but on the system that views the world in a very similar way we do ourselfs. Let's stay human.

[Dennis Carbo]

"With Photoshop we don't need an expensive camera at all nowadays"

Dont agree with that statement at all.....people rely too much on photoshop....

If start with crap all you get is crap thats been photoshopped  

I for one hate the current " Models with no skin " look...so smooth they look like plastic...just look silly to me...but then again what do I know..I shoot Architecture .....LOL

Quality doesnt have to mean expensive either - You can buy complete MF kits on Ebay for peanuts with some of the best lenses ever produced !

just my thoughts  

[fredjeang]

In fact, you need the camera that suits you. Not more, not less. More importantly the design and operation in your hands.
That's why testing in hand is obligatory. Not specially the magical IQ, because nowdays most of the cameras are capable of producing the quality you need.

The current models with no skin look is because of cultural codes, being introduced in many ad campaigns by some brands. This plastic unreal and quasi-mortiferous imagery has a lot to do with our plastic, dead and artificial societies (in the so called first world)...

I must say that I see the same cold imagery in arquitecture photography also nowdays. Perfect exposures, perfect textures, everything is clean, DR is perfect and all ends boring like hell.

My favorite picture of James Russell is this one, not specially the "cleanest and most elaborate" of his portfolio:
 
Link is here:http://russellrutherfordphoto.com/#/Sports/Sports/20

[tho_mas]

forgive me if I now state that the No-1-treasure to me is tho_mas. I'm establishing a flow-chart according to his information and whenever I find a website of Hasselblad without having to learn Swedish, the choice can be narrowed down and I will have to spend less time testing without even guessing what will go wrong in the end.

I am sure you will find many more "treasures" on this board when you start a new thread. I suspect there are quite a few users that simply stay away from this thread (due to its title and its author).

[Rob C]

Buy a car, it's far easier!

Keith! That's a fib! You know perfectly well how long I have been dancing around myself to replace Rusty and then, at the last moment, find a fiscal or moral imperative that demands I do nothing at all.

No, it's not lack of cash. It's a gut feeling that anything I do get, in that range, will be a huge disappointment. They are all boxes now, all tall as the Empire State and as pleasing to the eye as a catapult in Gaza. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

Cameras are also bitches. They seduce you (blonde or not) into thinking they will cure your emotional ills, will turn you into the soul you were half a century ago (okay, ME!), but then they turn into the same dogs that the last one was. But heavier. And more expensive. That opened film box shot brought it all back - well, it has been sitting there on the cabinet for zonks, anyway - and it proves the huge immediacy of digital, no argument. But, I can understand the problem that digital represents for many erstwhile film users. Film has another quality, it isn't just a tactile thing, and certainly the processing would be a real pain nowadays without the old pro set-ups of earlier years, part of the very personal routine that gave the particular look each snapper developed (oh dear) for himself, almost by default.

In the end, I suppose that it all comes down to what kind of work and time pressures you have. For the guy who enjoys messing about in the dark, it could still be fun, but for the busy pro, as in large throughput, it probably has to be a relic. Yet, why do I get the feeling that for many people, going big digi will be their financial undoing?

Rob C