Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted  (Read 6409 times)

erik hansen

  • Guest
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« on: April 05, 2003, 10:08:22 am »

i looked at the ISO 400. it looks disappointing.  not because of noise, but because of the aliasing off the edges.  the white type looks very unnatural and the painted curve on the lower part of the truck is pixelated, even in the low compression version.  this wouldn't show up in a small print, but in anything of a decent size it would look pretty bad.  you can get away with noise, but not that kind of nasty pixelation.
Logged

Peter K. Burian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
    • http://www.peterkburian.com
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2003, 02:03:36 pm »

Well, the truck is certainly not clean (see white areas.)

If I recall correctly, the lettering on it (... from anywhere ... ) is made up of decals (not painted on.)

That's about all the additional info I can provide.

Peter Burian
Logged

Bill Lawrence

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
    • http://
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2003, 10:03:48 pm »

I was doing 1:1 pixels (all on the monitor, I just zoomed until I was at the actual pixel level).  I've got a D60 to compare against too, the 14n just seemed awfully noisy to me, so I went back to a photo from the older camera.  Since the noise is at the pixel level, I figured 1:1 is the way to look.  I can't say that I did anything formal, just went to a low light shot with a solid color at iso 400 to see how much noise I saw, simply to see if I hadn't been looking closely enough at the CMOS sensors I own.

I'm still drooling for a full frame that will be affordable enough that I can put it in a housing and take it underwater (read here I'll get the 1DS the day I win the lottery).  My favorite lens underwater is a 20mm (in 35mm terms), and that is tough to do with the 1.6 multiplier.  Now if Canon would come out with the equivalent of Nikon's new 12mm limited image circle lens so I could house my D60...

Bill
Logged
Bill Lawrence
Photography: www.lawrences

Jan Brittenson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2003, 06:59:10 pm »

Noise is noise, and no matter what the magnification it reduces dynamic range.  The reason is that something that is correctly captured as pure black but is affected by noise has only one way to go: lighter.  If you average out noise in black areas you get fog, which reduces the dynamic range.  You can restore blacks by clipping the shadows and increasing overall contrast, but you can't recover lost dynamic range since that's a matter of scene contrast, not image contrast.

The only dSLR I've seen that produces less shadow noise than the D30, so far, is the 1Ds.  It's like a D30 on steroids.
Logged

Quentin

  • Guest
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2003, 11:55:01 am »

Lots of detail in the truck image, and Neat seems to have done a great job at reducing noise while retaining detail.

Quentin
Logged

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2003, 07:31:24 pm »

Quote
Noise is noise, and no matter what the magnification it reduces dynamic range.  The reason is that something that is correctly captured as pure black but is affected by noise has only one way to go: lighter.
Even for examining "fog", the only fair comparison between sensors of different pixel counts is viewing prints of the same size, or failing that, images at scales that correspond to the same total image size; not comparisons at equal pixel display size, which, I will repeat, is like viewing different negatives of different sizes at different magnifications.

Also, most photos contain little pure black, and most of the discussions of noise level are based on less completely dark parts of images, so while the fog level is one issue, there are other aspects to noise level  comparison.

At anything significantly above fog level, where most shadows lie in a properly exposed image, the RANDOMNESS of noise means that it is somewhat averaged out and hence reduced when one used more pixels to produce a given part of the print; roughly, with four times as many pixels (D30-14n), the visible noise level in the print should be reduced by about a half.


With criticism of the 14n, we seem to be into the stage of "taking sides and piling on": once significant, legitimate criticisms exist, and so an overall adverse mood has developed, some people become more credulous of other exagerated, sloppy, cynical and speculative critical arguments, while being more vigorously skeptical of any arguments in the contrary direction. I would like to hear a bit more objective assessment of "what things can it do well, and for how many people do these strengths make it worth the price?", which is how I would assess the significance of almost any product. If it can do a few useful things better than any other digital camera at anything close to its price, it probably has a niche.
Logged

sergio

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 666
    • http://www.sergiobartelsman.com
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2003, 10:14:53 am »

And what happens if the studio glamour photographer feels like placing his light sideways to produce a lot of shadows and increasing contrast? Should he then use the Canon 1Ds? or maybe grab his 6x7? It is then a very limited tool if the noise levels in the shadows at ISO 100 are quite high as we can see in the examples posted in Michael's review.
Logged

Peter K. Burian

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 47
    • http://www.peterkburian.com
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2003, 08:30:28 am »

Ok, my friend Gabriel has posted some of my Pro 14n images on a Web page as VERY large JPEG's.

Including one made at ISO 400 in low light/deep shade. (red truck)

And a crop from that image for closer examination.

AND then a crop after application of Neat Image noise reduction software.

See  http://207.148.231.204/

Also a huge JPEG crop from my ISO 100 image (Chinatown) for closer examination.

Peter Burian
Logged

Bill Lawrence

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
    • http://
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2003, 01:09:26 pm »

Erik,

Just so I can name what I'm looking at, the real jaggedy edge between the the red and the blue stripe is aliasing?

Anyway, I pulled up some of my old D30 shots done in shadow at ISO 400, and it's amazing how much more noise the 14n has in comparison (either that or the truck needs a bath).

Still drooling over a full frame sensor, though...

Bill
Logged
Bill Lawrence
Photography: www.lawrences

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2003, 04:05:22 pm »

Bill,

   are you comparing "noise per pixel" (viewing the D30 and 14n images at 1-1 pixels on your screen so that the you are looking at crops of total imags of very different sizes, the 14n's image being more than four times the area of the D30's?); or are you comparing noise levels at magnifications which correspond to the same total print size?

The latter is the only comparison that counts for predicting print quality; effectively the 14n might be offering pixels that are noisier, but that get magnified less to get a print of a given size, partially or completely off-setting the noise level. It seems a bit like comparing a medium format image on one film to a 35mm format image on another finer grained film.

On the other hand, probably that finer grain in 35mm could be achieved by using film slower by about two stops, since that is what gives comparable angular FOV, DOF and shutter speed for the smaller format; likewise, perhaps the D30 or any half-sized sensor should be compared at half the sensor speed (ISO200), since the smaller sensor can give the same angular FOV, DOF and shutter speed at that halfed sensor speed rating.

(As you can guess, I am still holding out for the more affordable option of high quality sub-35mm format sensors of 6-10MP, with a new standard zoom lens of correspondingly reduced focal lengths.)
Logged

scubastu

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
    • www.final-frame.com
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2003, 03:51:52 pm »

Hi Bill,

I'm in the same boat...pun intended.  I have the 10D.  Subal Austria is coming out with a housing for the 10D.  I'm thinking of getting the 15mm fisheye, if you factor in the 1.6 crop, the FOV is 113 degrees...that's 20 degrees wider than the 20mm (at 92degrees).  This would make it as wide as my 16-35mm in my film housing....plus I hope I won't need a new fisheye port!

The images I've been getting from my 10D are amazing.... I think it's the way to go for underwater....400 pics on a 1Gig card... =)

Stu
Logged

Bill Lawrence

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 106
    • http://
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2003, 09:52:19 pm »

Stu,

Quote
Subal Austria is coming out with a housing for the 10D.  I'm thinking of getting the 15mm fisheye, if you factor in the 1.6 crop, the FOV is 113 degrees...that's 20 degrees wider than the 20mm (at 92degrees).  This would make it as wide as my 16-35mm in my film housing....plus I hope I won't need a new fisheye port!


Alas, one of these days...

How is the 10D at ISO above 400?  My wife would like something she can push a bit further for indoor event photography.  First we get the 10D...  I'm working on my lens collection (slowly)...  Then it's just the minor expense of the housing (and strobes, connectors, etc)  :laugh:

If you ever do go down with the 10D/15 fisheye - post photos!

Bill
Logged
Bill Lawrence
Photography: www.lawrences

scubastu

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 77
    • www.final-frame.com
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2003, 10:43:03 am »

Hi Bill,

I already shoot the Canon EOS A2e in a Subal housing, I've got the strobes, arms, ports etc...but the new housing will be in the $3k range I think....

The only issue with me is the crop factor and getting the 15 fisheye.  I may need a new dome port for the fisheye, though my current port has no vignetting problems with the 16-35L at full frame.  

The 10D is fantastic at 400 ASA, very clean.

Stu
Logged

Jonathan Wienke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5829
    • http://visual-vacations.com/
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2003, 04:42:07 pm »

I use NeatImage Pro and I think it is an excellent program. However, like any digital noise reduction program, there are limits to how much noise can be eliminated without image distortion. If you say (just to pick numbers from the air) that NeatImage can reduce noise by 95% and give you another stop's worth of dynamic range, it can enhance a 1Ds image by the same 95%/1 stop as it can with a 14n image.

Actually, this is not true, because the noise reduction can be run more agressively in the 1Ds image than the 14n image. Since the 1Ds has a much lower noise level to start with, what little noise there is can be targeted much more aggressively before image artifacting begins to become noticeable. I am basing this on some comparisons I did with 1Ds sample shots vs. images I took with my Kodak DC4800.

Bottom line: NeatImage can help improve picture quality significantly, but having a clean image to start with helps even more. I am getting a 1Ds instead of a 14n. Sorry, Kodak.
Logged

Jonathan Wienke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5829
    • http://visual-vacations.com/
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2003, 04:22:21 am »

The 14n does do studio type photography well: readily available AC power, (so the battery life isn't an issue) low ISO setting and plenty of light. In these conditions, its' performance closely approximates the 1Ds, or perhaps even slightly surpasses it in some areas. For a photogragher running a glamour photo business or doing some other similar studio work, a 14n might be just the ticket. For wildlife, sports, and landscape (except for sunny daylight) work, it would appear to be much less desirable. If your intended use falls within the parameters of what the camera can do well, then you will probably be happy with it. If not, then you should probably look elsewhere.
Logged

Jonathan Wienke

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5829
    • http://visual-vacations.com/
Pro 14n - HUGE JPEG Images Posted
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2003, 01:48:42 pm »

Well, like I've said before, I have a 1Ds on order, scheduled to arrive in about 10-14 days. My personal preference is to spend the extra money and get a camera system that is more flexible and capable of producing excellent results in in the widest possible array of circumstances.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up