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Author Topic: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment  (Read 259903 times)

amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #340 on: January 22, 2015, 09:45:03 am »

I assume you're joking, Ken?
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #341 on: January 22, 2015, 09:57:30 am »

Russ, it's been explained by both Jeremy and me, that using a camera in video mode to capture the best moment of a rapidly changing scene is simply an alternative approach to setting the camera in 'continuous frame' mode. The advantage is, you won't fill up the buffer within a couple of seconds. The disadvantage is, there will be a sacrifice in resolution, and possibly dynamic range, but that shouldn't bother those who subscribe to the Ansel Adams maxim that there's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

Fine, Ray. Now show me an example of good -- I emphasize good -- street photography shot either in video mode or burst mode. I've played with burst mode in the past and I've never been entranced by the results. I'm talking about burst mode with the Nikon D3, which in 14 bit raw mode gives you a bit more than 9 frames a second for 16 frames. If you need more than 4 seconds and 16 frames for a street shot, you're screwed any way you slice it.

Luke understands the problem. Using burst mode or video mode is a mechanical approach detached from the situation. To do good street you need to be wholly captured by and involved in the action. Everybody seems to think that HCB was talking about an external event when he coined the phrase "the decisive moment." Actually, he was talking about the moment when the photographer is totally involved in the event and recognizes that it's reached the instant when he needs to capture it. The "decisive moment" is something in the mind of the photographer and in some ways it's almost like an orgasm.

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For me, the 2mp frame size of an HD video 'still' is not enticing, because I'm a bit obsessed with resolution, which is why I don't use HD video for this purpose. However, my recommendation related to the new 4k video format with double the resolution and 4x the file size of standard HD.

If you understand street photography you'll understand that high resolution isn't a requirement. Look at HCB's early work. The film was slow, and even with dead-bang-on focus a lot of stuff is a bit out of focus because of shallow DOF. Compared with what's available now, resolution was lousy. And yet, people like Kertesz, HCB, Evans, Riboud created classics that stand alone. If you're shooting architecture or landscape you need to be concerned about resolution. If you're shooting street it's a minor consideration. I've attached a shot I made in 2000 with a Casio QV-3000EX, which had just come out. It has 3 mpx resolution. It makes a quite acceptable 8 x 10.

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All modern DSLRs have a 'continuous frame' mode. Do you think this is just a gimmick, Russ, and an unsubstantiated theory of a method for capturing the 'moment'?  ;D

I think video in a still camera is a marketing gimmick. We've had compact movie cameras for years. There was no reason to add video mode to a still camera, but the camera manufacturers were running out of gimmicks, like more and more pixels and jazzier focusing mechanics, and sales were falling. Being able to make a short movie with a still camera really appealed to point-and-shooters, and caused some of them to switch to more expensive mid-market cameras. It did give the industry a boost. Now that point-and-shoot cameras have been driven out by cell phones the industry needs another boost. What jazzy but unnecessary accoutrement will come along next?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 09:55:37 am by RSL »
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Isaac

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #342 on: January 22, 2015, 01:46:04 pm »

Kertész too -- "Kertész was an expert printer and a precise technician, even as he strove for spontaneity and naturalism in his imagery and, with the exception of cropping, was apparently averse to manipulations such as experimental darkroom techniques and photomontage."
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #343 on: January 22, 2015, 01:49:41 pm »

I've seen in a few places the assertion that HCB didn't crop because he didn't print.

This is ridiculous, you can easily indicate a desired crop on the contact sheet. I've done it myself.
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Isaac

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #344 on: January 22, 2015, 01:51:53 pm »

The disadvantage is, there will be a sacrifice in resolution, and possibly dynamic range, but that shouldn't bother those who subscribe to the Ansel Adams maxim that there's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept.

As you are aware, that is not to praise the fuzzy image but to condemn the fuzzy concept.

“You have beautiful calligraphy, but it’s up to you what you write with it.” Kertész

“Technique is only the minimum in photography. It’s what one must start with. I believe you should be a perfect technician in order to express yourself as you wish and then you can forget about the technique.” Kertész
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:06:06 pm by Isaac »
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kers

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #345 on: January 22, 2015, 02:37:04 pm »


Using a Leica- you never see exactly what will be on the picture so you should crop for that reason alone...
 ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:38:38 pm by kers »
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Isaac

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #346 on: January 22, 2015, 03:26:28 pm »

Evans too -- "Of those 54 common images, there were at least three variants—Alabama Tenant Farmer Family Singing Hymns (1936), Alabama Cotton Tenant Farmer Wife (1936), and Arkansas Flood Refugee (1937)—and most had different croppings, either with more or less information along the edges (such as Westchester, New York, Farmhouse) . This suggests that Evans did not fetishize a single image, cropping, or even selection of works, but rather was interested in the mutable and indefinite aspects of photography…"
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #347 on: January 22, 2015, 04:01:22 pm »

Evans never claimed he did, Isaac. As far as I know, HCB was the only one who avoided cropping wherever possible -- which meant everything he did with two exceptions forced on him by circumstances.
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #348 on: January 22, 2015, 04:06:01 pm »

I'm pretty sure Emerson didn't crop, but Robinson did (obviously). And on and on.

ETA: The FSA photographers, with the exception of Evans, did not crop while working for the FSA.  Roy Stryker cropped for them.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 04:29:22 pm by amolitor »
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LKaven

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #349 on: January 22, 2015, 04:19:25 pm »

Why would we be going down a list of "photographers who sometimes crop"?  Is there a comparison forthcoming?  It's a little like giving a list of musicians who don't play jazz.  What would be the point?

In both cases, there's something special that happens in that moment as a consequence of the moments leading up to it.  You either dig it or you don't, but there's no reason that says you have to go that way.

Isaac

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #350 on: January 23, 2015, 11:20:40 am »

Riboud aussi -- 'Of Cartier Bresson he retained this worrying of detail and of perfect composition, but Oh so much rebelled to dare say " I’m not against a little crop times to another".'


As far as I know, HCB was the only one who avoided cropping wherever possible -- which meant everything he did with two exceptions forced on him by circumstances.

Previously you thought there was a third example, which you were unable to recall.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 12:19:08 pm by Isaac »
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #351 on: January 23, 2015, 11:54:26 am »

Firstly, you're not going to determine that there was only ever one non-cropper by enumerating photographers who do sometimes crop. The method itself is silly.

Secondly, there have been other photographers philosophically opposed to cropping (which is a better description of HCB, he DID crop from time to time, as is well documented, as if that proves anything). I have given you some, and there are others, and there are a couple active in this thread right now.

So not only is the method silly, it cannot succeed because we have already demonstrated the opposite conclusion to be true.
 
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #352 on: January 23, 2015, 12:11:59 pm »

Weston didn't crop (natch)
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LKaven

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #353 on: January 23, 2015, 01:21:36 pm »

If you found there was only one musician who played jazz, would you see the point?

Previously you mentioned subsequent work in philosophy, what specific work are you referring to?

I think the entire Magnum school was influenced by the concepts of HCB, and a lot more.  It's a philosophy that one acts on when one believes it is meaningful for one, and otherwise not.

I wonder whether you have either a positive or a negative thesis to state?  It seems sometimes you are involved in endless qualifying of remarks without appearing to build to a point.  If you have a point, I'd be interested to hear it, so I could address myself to it directly.

As far as philosophy, I'd cite most work done since Kripke's Naming And Necessity.  The return of metaphysical realism around 1970 underwrote the cognitivist theories of behavior we have today.  A good example of one might be Dretske's _Explaining Behavior_.  I draw more heavily on Ruth Millikan, William Lycan, Peter Godfrey Smith and teleological functionalism.  My personal interests (in a half-finished thesis) are on the nature of committing and act, and thereby becoming committed to undergoing its consequences.

I also think you could go to Dewey (cf, Experience, Nature and Art), or to Sartre on this.

Put more simply, there is a lot that can be said about the moment of commitment, in terms of the reasons for doing so (beliefs and desires) and the expectation of what the consequences will be.  HCB pointed out something of genuine and enduring interest. 

RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #354 on: January 23, 2015, 07:49:25 pm »

If you have a point, I'd be interested to hear it, so I could address myself to it directly.

Forget it, Luke. Isaac just trolls. All he knows about the subject is what he reads. As far as anyone knows he's never held a camera in his hands, so he has no way of knowing what he's talking about. It appears he's pretty widely read on the subject, and sometimes he comes up with a worthwhile reference. But as far as a point of view based on experience, forget it.
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #355 on: January 23, 2015, 08:08:53 pm »

I have no trouble understanding Jonathan.

You have the cart before the horse on the other. The commitment is not to use the photo as framed, but to frame the photo so it can be used.
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jjj

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #356 on: January 24, 2015, 01:56:15 pm »

What does that have to do with paying attention to what's going on around you?
Are you being deliberately obtuse in denying an alternative way of working Russ?
The fact that a large card's capacity mean you can concentrate on shooting and not worrying about how many shots you have left counteracts one of your many inaccurate reasons why 'movie mode' is useless.
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jjj

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #357 on: January 24, 2015, 02:02:12 pm »

To summarize, in the most pragmatic possible terms, why movie mode for street is silly:

IF you propose to replace attentiveness with long bursts of frames, THEN it won't work because your camera position will likely be wrong.
IF you do not so propose, THEN it will work fine but be pointless because if you're attentive, you got the shot anyways.

Replace 'attentiveness' with other elements of technique, to suit.
That's not a summary, that's your inaccurate view and deliberate misinterpretation.
You seem to confuse your opinion with facts. Again.

Shooting a burst of shots using movie mode is no different from using a motordrive to capture something, other than FPS. And has zero impact on attentiveness.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 02:43:09 pm by jjj »
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amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #358 on: January 24, 2015, 02:11:05 pm »

WAT?
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #359 on: January 24, 2015, 02:16:49 pm »

The fact that a large card's capacity mean you can concentrate on shooting and not worrying about how many shots you have left counteracts one of your many inaccurate reasons why 'movie mode' is useless.

Movie mode isn't useless because of the card's capacity, Jeremy. It's useless for street shooting because it's a different kind of shooting. Being totally connected to the action is the essence of street, and you can't be totally connected if you're banging away with a movie camera.

I have yet to see a good street shot made in movie mode. Show me one that you think is good and we can discuss it.
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