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Author Topic: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment  (Read 259790 times)

Jonathan Wienke

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #280 on: January 20, 2015, 05:50:10 am »

I'll take that evasion as an acknowledgement that you simply misunderstood the comment you were reading.

Says the guy who represents himself as an authority on photography, but has not shown a single frame of his work.
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Jonathan Wienke

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #281 on: January 20, 2015, 05:57:55 am »

Already addressed this, but worth repeating. There is no buffer problem, it's filming not recording high speed stills.

So then you're limited to the video resolution of the camera, rather than what the camera can shoot in still mode. So in addition to sacrificing resolution, because you're essentially shooting JPEGS, you're limiting your post-processing options significantly compared to RAW stills. That doesn't seem to be the technological panacea you're making it out to be.
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #282 on: January 20, 2015, 06:38:08 am »

Crikey! Russ. You really do seem to be bound by a lot of rules.  ;)

Whether you decide to shoot in movie mode, or take a full-resolution continuous burst for 2 or 3 seconds, or just take a single shot, you should use your nous to determine which method would likely allow you to capture the best moment under the circumstances.

Obviously, if you see your card is almost full and you're not carrying a spare one, then it would be only sensible to stop shooting in movie mode, or alternatively delete sections of previous movie sequences, after assuring yourself there was nothing you wanted to keep.

Carrying sufficient memory for the style of shooting one intends to engage in, is a very basic, practical consideration. Memory cards are cheap nowadays.

In your example of waiting for someone interesting to emerge from a door, I wouldn't advise keeping the camera rolling unless there was a fairly continuous stream of people emerging from the door, that you found potentially interesting.

If you're looking directly at the doorway through the viewfinder, then as soon as someone begins to emerge, (you see the tip of his hat, for example), that is the time to press the movie button. During the next 2 or 3 seconds there might be a variety of postures and facial expressions, one or more of which are the best.

A similar procedure might apply to the situation of a man jumping over a puddle. Anticipating that something unusual is about to take place, you frame your composition in accordance with a pleasing sense of geometry (whatever), then as soons as the man begins to jump the puddle, you either hit the move button, or press the shutter button to take a burst of continuous frames for the following 2 or 3 seconds.

By the way, the reason I'm discussing this is not because I use movie mode myself, in order to extract the best still-image moment, but because of the potential I see in the new Samsung NX1.

Standard HD video is not high enough resolution for me, and I believe most DSLRs produce the 'rolling shutter' effect in video mode. The NX1 apparently has a global shutter in movie mode. In other words, each video frame is a full 28mp capture, downsampled and compressed, although I'm not entirely certain about this. The camera still seems to be in a process of firmware development.

Anyway, if 4k video stills do not provide sufficient resolution, and/or sufficient DR, the continuous frame rate is adjustable down to a slow 8fps, which should be fast enough to capture the perfect moment of someone emerging from a doorway.  ;)

ROTFL! So instead of paying attention to what's going on around me, I should pay attention to whether or not my card(s) are full, and make sure I have plenty of cards so I can swap them out as I fill them with worthless crap. This isn't street photography; it's idiocy!
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donbga

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #283 on: January 20, 2015, 07:31:20 am »

It is my recollection that HCB did have his work cropped in a small percentage of work though I can't point you to an example of his cropped work but I am thinking this may have occurred when he was shooting medium format or color work.
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Ray

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #284 on: January 20, 2015, 09:08:57 am »

ROTFL! So instead of paying attention to what's going on around me, I should pay attention to whether or not my card(s) are full, and make sure I have plenty of cards so I can swap them out as I fill them with worthless crap. This isn't street photography; it's idiocy!

Don't be silly. Determining how many shots you have left on the card requires no more than a glance, and replacing a 128 GB, or 256 GB SD card takes no more than a few seconds, and is a lot easier and less distracting than replacing a 35mm film.

You're the expert on HCB. Did he ever mention missing some critical shots because he'd run out of film?  ;)
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Jonathan Wienke

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #285 on: January 20, 2015, 09:14:24 am »

By the way, the reason I'm discussing this is not because I use movie mode myself, in order to extract the best still-image moment, but because of the potential I see in the new Samsung NX1.

Translation:
I don't actually do what I'm recommending, but I might if the rumors about a certain camera turn out to be true.

Quote
Standard HD video is not high enough resolution for me, and I believe most DSLRs produce the 'rolling shutter' effect in video mode.

More reasons not to do what you recommend.

Quote
The NX1 apparently has a global shutter in movie mode. In other words, each video frame is a full 28mp capture, downsampled and compressed, although I'm not entirely certain about this. The camera still seems to be in a process of firmware development.

More hopeful speculation. And in the best case scenario, you're still trading away a 28MP RAW for an 8MP JPEG (2MP if your camera only does 1080p video).

Quote
Anyway, if 4k video stills do not provide sufficient resolution, and/or sufficient DR, the continuous frame rate is adjustable down to a slow 8fps, which should be fast enough to capture the perfect moment of someone emerging from a doorway.  ;)

At which point you go back to buffer limitations, etc., and still have to exercise good judgment regarding the proper moment to press the shutter release. I'm pretty much going to have to agree with Russ on this.
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donbga

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #286 on: January 20, 2015, 09:51:01 am »

One of HCB's most famous photos was cropped, the puddle jumper shot.
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Ray

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #287 on: January 20, 2015, 09:56:07 am »

Translation:
I don't actually do what I'm recommending, but I might if the rumors about a certain camera turn out to be true.

More reasons not to do what you recommend.

More hopeful speculation. And in the best case scenario, you're still trading away a 28MP RAW for an 8MP JPEG (2MP if your camera only does 1080p video).

At which point you go back to buffer limitations, etc., and still have to exercise good judgment regarding the proper moment to press the shutter release. I'm pretty much going to have to agree with Russ on this.

I think you've missed the main point here, Jonathan. I've seen an HCB exhibition in Australia, and I was not impressed with the over all technical quality of the prints. However, technical quality is a different issue from 'artistic' or 'visionary' quality. As Ansel Adams said, 'There's nothing worse than a sharp image of a fuzzy concept', a principle which you apparently agree with.

I entered this discussion making the point, if technical quality is not the major concern, but capturing the decisive moment is, as it appears to have been for HCB, then modern camera technology offers a wide range of options, some of which involve a sacrifice in technical quality in order to facilitate an enhanced opportunity to capture a decisive moment.

Each of those options has its advantages and drawbacks, so how you use those options and in what circumstances is dependent upon your skills as a photographer.

One should always exercise good judgement, whether it be the right moment to take a single shot, the right moment to begin a short, full-resolution burst lasting a second or two, or the right moment to begin, and to cease, shooting video.
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #288 on: January 20, 2015, 10:08:08 am »

Hi Ray, You've GOT to be kidding -- or else you haven't a clue about street photography. While I'm paying attention to my camera, my cards, etc., the world is changing around me. I'll reiterate what I said in "On Street Photography":

". . .in many cases to wait for your conscious mind to register both the facts and the geometry is to miss the picture. So, the second thing you need to do is learn not to rely on your conscious mind, but to rely on your unconscious: to react instinctively. There simply isn't time to think about it."

While you're dorking around with your camera, I'll be getting the street shot of the day. Have fun dorking.
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Ray

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #289 on: January 20, 2015, 10:19:44 am »

Hi Ray, You've GOT to be kidding -- or else you haven't a clue about street photography. While I'm paying attention to my camera, my cards, etc., the world is changing around me. I'll reiterate what I said in "On Street Photography":

". . .in many cases to wait for your conscious mind to register both the facts and the geometry is to miss the picture. So, the second thing you need to do is learn not to rely on your conscious mind, but to rely on your unconscious: to react instinctively. There simply isn't time to think about it."

While you're dorking around with your camera, I'll be getting the street shot of the day. Have fun dorking.

Are you still using 4GB memory cards, Russ? They're up to 256 GB now, for just a couple of hundred dollars or so.  ;)

Correction: They're up to 512 GB, but rather expensive at $600 from B&H, but very fast. Ideal for those trying to outdo HCB.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 10:33:22 am by Ray »
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stamper

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #290 on: January 20, 2015, 10:22:39 am »

Quote Ray

Don't be silly. Determining how many shots you have left on the card requires no more than a glance, and replacing a 128 GB, or 256 GB SD card takes no more than a few seconds, and is a lot easier and less distracting than replacing a 35mm film.
You're the expert on HCB. Did he ever mention missing some critical shots because he'd run out of film?  Wink

unquote

Ray you must be rich. 128 GB & 256 GB cards in your possession? How much shooting do you do to fill up a 128 GB card. Did you mean 128 MB & 256 MB ? My biggest card is a "modest" 32 GB and I haven't filled that up. :)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 10:26:22 am by stamper »
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Ray

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #291 on: January 20, 2015, 10:40:58 am »

Quote Ray

Don't be silly. Determining how many shots you have left on the card requires no more than a glance, and replacing a 128 GB, or 256 GB SD card takes no more than a few seconds, and is a lot easier and less distracting than replacing a 35mm film.
You're the expert on HCB. Did he ever mention missing some critical shots because he'd run out of film?  Wink

unquote

Ray you must be rich. 128 GB & 256 GB cards in your possession? How much shooting do you do to fill up a 128 GB card. Did you mean 128 MB & 256 MB ? My biggest card is a "modest" 32 GB and I haven't filled that up. :)

I filled up my 128 GB Sandisk SD card within one month of my current travels. I popped into the local supermarket to buy another, but the largest they had was 64 GB, so that's what I'm currently using. The second slot in my Nikon D800E is filled with a mere 16 GB compact flash card.
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stamper

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #292 on: January 20, 2015, 11:12:41 am »

Ray you posted the 128 GB information in relation to Russ's street shooting. I don't think he is going to be on the street for a month?

RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #293 on: January 20, 2015, 11:30:36 am »

Are you still using 4GB memory cards, Russ? They're up to 256 GB now, for just a couple of hundred dollars or so.  ;)

Correction: They're up to 512 GB, but rather expensive at $600 from B&H, but very fast. Ideal for those trying to outdo HCB.  ;D

Haven't checked lately but I think I have a 16gb card in the EP-1. I've never approached its limit because I don't dork around with stuff like that.

If you think any particular technology will let you, or even help you outdo HCB you simply don't understand the problem. To even approach what HCB did you need to shoot and shoot and shoot, internalize the fundamentals of composition, and learn what makes a good photograph. If you have to even so much as think about your camera you can blaze away all day -- in or out of movie mode -- and unless you happen to get very, very lucky, come up with a card full of crap. None of this has anything to do with technology, Ray. I've been doing street since 1953 with everything from a Kodak Pony, through a Canon 7, through three different Leicas, through the first point-and-shoot digitals, through the Nikon D-100, D-2x, D-3, D-800, and the Olympus EP-1 rigged up with a Leica lens and finder.

Here's a shot from 1953 Korea out of the Kodak Pony. I've posted it before. Do you really think technology would have made this shot easier? If that's what you think you need to do a lot more study and research.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 12:13:36 pm by RSL »
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amolitor

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Some context
« Reply #294 on: January 20, 2015, 12:12:14 pm »

The more I think about it, read, and look at the pictures, the more I think HCB was in fact sui generis, one of a kind.

It's helpful to think in terms of a painting. Consider, say, a painting of Children At Play. If it's an excellent painting, it depicts some sort of essence of Children At Play. In it, the children have not just scored a goal, the smaller child is not tackling a larger one. The children are simply engrossed in the game. Perhaps one child, in the corner, has been distracted by a coin he's spied on the pavement. The lines of the curb and the railing in the background are placed just so, as are the windows in the buildings.

The body language of the children is varied, as are their expressions. They are placed in the frame just so.

The moment depicted is not a special moment to the children, they would not recognize it as any different from the moment 10 seconds earlier or later. It is perhaps a completely typical moment in their play.

The painting is put into a canvas of such and such a size.

----

So what?

----

This right here is what HCB was up to. The Decisive Moment is not necessarily a human moment. It is not necessarily recognizable to to the people in the frame as special. It is not the moment the lovers kiss. It is not the moment the goal is scored. It is not the moment the milk spills. It is the moment when the painting of Children At Play, or The Lovers, or In The Kitchen appears in the viewfinder.

If you're out there looking for those human moments, those moments that the people in-frame would recognize as special, well, you can make some fine pictures. But your picture will be, most likely, of some children playing, some lovers kissing. They're not the pictures HCB was taking.

----

How do you do it? Well, he tells us. You become engaged with the scene. You move, as the players in the scene move, and together you move the forms in the finder around. This is important, so I will repeat it: TOGETHER you move the forms in the finder around. Until a painting appears. Ideally. In reality, you grope towards it, shooting, wondering if that was it, or is this next moment it, or this one. You work the scene, you try, you shoot, you get closer, perhaps, to the ideal form.

In the end you have 2 or 3 or 20 or 36 exposures, and one of them, perhaps, will be the best one.

Movie mode could help here, not as a substitute for technique, but as an add-on. If you could shoot 300 frames, then one would be the best. If you could shoot 1000, then one of those would be the best.

But you still move, you watch, you engage, you hunt for that "painting".

A strong argument can be made that the only tool that really works for this is a small rangefinder. I'm not going to make it, because others have made it before, and you can probably go find that.

-----

And finally, it is perfectly clear why one would not crop. If you bought a rectangular canvas, would you paint a square painting on it? No. The painting is fitted to the canvas. If the painting is fundamentally square, you get yourself a square canvas, or you don't paint it.

There are infinitely many 3:2 paintings to be made, why fuss around with the square ones, or the 4:5 ones? You've got a 3:2 canvas. Put a painting on it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 12:17:22 pm by amolitor »
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RSL

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #295 on: January 20, 2015, 12:16:22 pm »

Well said, Andrew, and right on. The problem isn't shortcomings in the technology. The problem is shortcomings in the people using the technology.
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Ray

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #296 on: January 20, 2015, 12:35:15 pm »

Here's a shot from 1953 Korea out of the Kodak Pony. I've posted it before. Do you really think technology would have made this shot easier? If that's what you think you need to do a lot more study and research.

I wasn't there, but I imagine the kid would have had his hand out for several seconds; plenty of time to frame the shot and dilly dally before pressing the shutter. You might even have had time to change film and take another shot. Looks like a fairly static situation. I also think it's a shot that might have been better taken with a slightly wider angle lens and cropped in post processing. I don't like people's heads being cropped in half.

However, one clear advantage of modern technology which should make most, if not all street shots easier, is auto-focusing. I don't believe any camera had that facility in 1953.
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LKaven

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #297 on: January 20, 2015, 12:41:05 pm »

I think Andrew said a number of important things quite well.  One thing I'd qualify though.

The reasons for not cropping have to do with the content of the photographer's decision to commit to the picture in the moment.  The picture is apprehended to the photographer in that instant as a whole, and explained by a complex of reasons that, in the ideal case, display a special level of inspiration that is manifest in that composition and only that composition.  There would be no reason to think that a "better" picture should lie as a proper subset of such a composition.

LKaven

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #298 on: January 20, 2015, 12:44:55 pm »

However, one clear advantage of modern technology which should make most, if not all street shots easier, is auto-focusing. I don't believe any camera had that facility in 1953.

In general, I find autofocus to be a distraction that exerts too much influence over my choices of composition.  There is no time to "focus and recompose" in these circumstances.  When I want the subject in focus in a corner of the frame, it is better to just have good manual focus skills and move to acquire the image where your aesthetic judgment would place it without any intervening steps.

PS -- chopping off parts of subjects is a time-honored tradition, though seldom practiced by HCB himself.  Larry Fink is a master of slicing through the darkness with a snooted flash, and parts of subjects connect disjointly in his compositions brilliantly.

amolitor

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Re: Yeah Cartier-Bresson couldn't crop for........a member's comment
« Reply #299 on: January 20, 2015, 12:47:30 pm »

AF can actually be a problem, as it adds delays, sometimes substantial (if the damned thing chooses that moment -- which it will! -- to decide to hunt around a bit).

The zone focused rangefinder, with the ability to see the frame in-context, to see beyond the edges of the frame, was a remarkably perfect instrument for HCB's methods. One wonders, in fact, how much of the method comes from the tool.
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