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Author Topic: Scratch Size?  (Read 5237 times)

ChristopherBarrett

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Scratch Size?
« on: August 19, 2010, 09:19:00 pm »

Hey Guys,

I'm building, with a little help from Doug, my dream 12 core screamer.  Finally!  I'm planning to go with OWC's SSD drives to keep things extra zippy.  I work off of a Drobo Pro, so internal storage isn't really an issue.

So our plan was to use two SSD's in Raid 0 for the OS/Apps volume and another Dual SSD Raid 0 just for scratch.  Given that, and the fact that these things aint cheap... any advice on what size I should go for?

I thought the 100 gb jobbies oughtta do it.  The Raids would then be 200gb a piece.  Enough?

Gracias,

CB
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 10:33:19 pm »

Hey Guys,

I'm building, with a little help from Doug, my dream 12 core screamer.  Finally!  I'm planning to go with OWC's SSD drives to keep things extra zippy.  I work off of a Drobo Pro, so internal storage isn't really an issue.

So our plan was to use two SSD's in Raid 0 for the OS/Apps volume and another Dual SSD Raid 0 just for scratch.  Given that, and the fact that these things aint cheap... any advice on what size I should go for?

I thought the 100 gb jobbies oughtta do it.  The Raids would then be 200gb a piece.  Enough?

Gracias,

CB
Good question. Sounds like it should be large enough for the scratch drive, although 200gb would squeeze me for the system drive with all the apps I have.

 My new 12 core arrives tomorrow, and I'm wondering now that PS is 64 bit, is there a point when there enough RAM that PS might not need to ever go to the scratch disk.  Starting with 24gb of ram.  Seems even with a several layer p65 file weighing in at 3gb  or so, there should be enough RAM to avoid needing a scratch disk.

I opted for 4 WD black caviar 1tb drives, all striped into a single Raid 0 for the internal drive.  External storage is on  OWC's new external raid , 4 2TB drives in a hardware raid 5 enclosure connected with eSata. (for under $1k)

I'll be interested to see how  you feel about the SSD's. 

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Schewe

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 11:46:49 pm »

My new 12 core arrives tomorrow, and I'm wondering now that PS is 64 bit, is there a point when there enough RAM that PS might not need to ever go to the scratch disk.

Photoshop will always create a scratch disk page file regardless of the amount of ram you may have. The question is when PS will hit the point where it HAS to write to disk...if you NEVER drop below 100% Efficiency (you can set the image window to display this) the odds are you aren't hitting scratch and everything will be processed all in ram–particularly if you have 16+ GBs installed with PS CS5 as a 64-bit app. I'm running a dual quad core with 32 gigs of ram. I have 4 600GB SAS drives internally on a Mac Raid card. Two of the 600 BG drives are arrayed in a Raid 0 for Photoshop scratch. I personally haven't hit the scratch except for when doing a stitch of say 8-9 P65+ 16-bit raw files.

I would say the a pair of SSDs that are 200 GB 'should be' large enough...but the real question is whether or not the SSDs actually scale well when arrayed as a Raid 0. You may end up finding the SSD drives may actually work better as 2 separate drives with both set as scratch, one after the other (scratch 1 & 2). This is something you can test. If you are not arraying the drives with a hardware array vs a system level array, the SSDs may be no faster arrayed and may actually be slower then keeping the drives separate. SSD is really, really fast on reads but Photoshop scratch needs really, really fast writes.
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gazwas

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 04:01:39 am »

It will be a bit pointless having dual SSD's for OS/Apps, dual SSD's for scratch, another internal SATA data drive and your eSTAT Drobo Pro connected to your machine as you will have long since saturated (drowned  ;) ) you SATA connection.

SATA 3 offers a maximum throughput of est. 600MB/s
SATA 2 (probably not using this unless like me, you run MAC  :-[ ) is est. 300MB/s

One pair of SSD's in RAID 0 can come close to your maximum throughput and the rest of your system would just hang, or possibly completely slow down while it manages its data throughput. IMO, dual SSD's for OS (you start once a day) and a hand full of apps (that if like me, open once and use all day) is a bit pointless. Does boot time and app opening really mean that much to you??  ???

Dual SSD's for scratch again I find very questionable. Have you ever monitored your system and noticed PS continually writing to scratch? How large are the file you use and how much memory will be installed in this dream rig? If using PS CS5, wouldn't adding lots of RAM be more SYSTEM efficient that expensive SSD's that PS only uses?

Sound to me you've been bit by the technology bug and just after bleeding edge when in reality you'll just be left with a big hole in your bank balance......  :o
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 04:32:01 am by gazwas »
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 07:36:46 am »

Thanks for chiming in guys!  Jeff confirmed my suspicion that PS always likes to have a scratch page regardless of how much Ram you throw at it.  Whether or not it's going to get written to with 32gb RAM?

Gareth, as I understand it, SATA supplies 300mb/s per port...not overall.  I've no idea what the bus itself caps at but even the laptops (as tested by DigiLloyd) offer around 550 mb/s on a 2 drive striped SSD Raid.

Haven't ordered the drives yet, so any additional input appreciated.

CB  
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 07:44:35 am by CBarrett »
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ctz

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2010, 09:02:41 am »

Gareth, as I understand it, SATA supplies 300mb/s per port...not overall.

Indeed, I have a 4 (non SSD) harddisks RAID0. (4XWD Caviar Blue, 640GB each)
The read/write speed is 400MB/sec for the RAID0 matrix and 100MB/sec for the standard, non RAIDed drive. (on SATA2).
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gazwas

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2010, 10:05:51 am »

Gareth, as I understand it, SATA supplies 300mb/s per port...not overall.  I've no idea what the bus itself caps at but even the laptops (as tested by DigiLloyd) offer around 550 mb/s on a 2 drive striped SSD Raid. 
Oh, sorry my misunderstanding.  :-[

Still not sure why you would want RAID 0 SSD's for OS/Apps and scratch?
Do you often re-boot your computer and continually launch and quit apps?

IMO single SSD's and lots of RAM for these duties will be more than capable......
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Dustbak

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2010, 11:15:15 am »

I can understand the idea of having a Raid0 of SSD's for a scratch drive but for an OS drive it seems overdone to me. Applications launched reside in memory and even when you close them that part of memory will still have it in there until it is needed for something else.

A single SSD for the OS, A Raid0 for scratch with lots of RAM seem sufficient to me. Another thought might be a RAID1 for the OS for the redundancy and the read speed which is significantly increased at the cost of a worse write speed.

Interesting discussion anyway. My drives are on the nomination to be replaced to increase performance.
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ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2010, 11:23:55 am »

All interesting...

Perhaps even something like this:

1 SSD for Boot Volume
Dual SSD Raid 0 for Scratch mounted in spare opti bay via OWC bracket
3 HD's in remaining space for on board storage (video files, active jobs, yada yada)

Hmm....
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Jack Flesher

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2010, 11:38:55 am »

Chris,

I've tested multiple configurations of SSD's and spinners for scratch and OS/Apps on my 8-core 3.2.  Here is what I've found:

1) RAID-0 SSD's for OS and apps makes virtually zero difference in overall performance over a single (good) SSD. I'm using the OWC RAID SSD's.  No improvement in boot speed that could be measured, no improvement in program launch speeds that could be measured, and no significant differences in overall system responsiveness that could be perceived.  In short, if there were gains, they were not significant enough to justify the expense of a pair of RE SSD's on OS.

2) For scratch, I found that a pair of SSD's performed about equally to my 4x spinner RAID-0 scratch partition when I force fed it a huge file to really stress scratch.  Now with lots of RAM, even though CS5 wants a scratch partition, it doesn't need to I/O actual data to it very often except for large, multilayered files. So again, at the end of the day I didn't feel there was any gain and wasn't worth it expense wise especially now that CS can utilize RAM more effectively -- even though it sounded cool.

So here is my reco: One SSD for OS and Apps -- I mount this in the lower optical bay and use the free SATA port for it.  Then 4x2TB spinners in teh main bays, all in a partitioned RAID-0; the fastest outer rim 128G of each partitioned off for a 500G scratch drive, the rest as a single (HUGE) 7.5TB partition for really fast image I/O, then those images obviously backed up to whatever external array you prefer.  IMO, this will give you optimal performance and maximum storage all at the lowest cost.   {FWIW, I actually partition off a third 250G inner (slowest) partition on each drive and leave them single (no RAID) for back-up data like a couple redundant bootable copies of the OS. One of these updated daily the other weekly using CCC. Having these has saved my bacon more than once recovering from bad or corrupt App updates.}

PS: Note that WD 2TB non-RE drives don't RAID well, so if you go WD drives make sure you get RE versions.  Also note that the newest Seagate 2TB's are SATA-3 and offer a tiny performance gain over SATA-2 drives at a minimal cost addition.  (The 2TB SATA-3 Seagates are on sale today at my local Fry's for $179 each.)


« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 11:50:52 am by Jack Flesher »
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feppe

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2010, 12:03:13 pm »

2) For scratch, I found that a pair of SSD's performed about equally to my 4x spinner RAID-0 scratch partition when I force fed it a huge file to really stress scratch.

So, would that make the force-fed files foie graSSD?

Thank you, thank you. Please tip your waiter.

Wayne Fox

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2010, 11:12:17 pm »


PS: Note that WD 2TB non-RE drives don't RAID well, so if you go WD drives make sure you get RE versions.  Also note that the newest Seagate 2TB's are SATA-3 and offer a tiny performance gain over SATA-2 drives at a minimal cost addition.  (The 2TB SATA-3 Seagates are on sale today at my local Fry's for $179 each.)

dang ... I could have used this info a day earlier.  After reading this I did some research and "don't raid well" may be an understatement.  They should never be used in a raid because they are completely unreliable.

It turns out for a WD drive to work reliably in a raid a feature called TLER (time limited error recovery) must be enabled.  This was a feature that could be disabled/enabled on drives they made until sometime in 2009, after than any drive not listed as RE (raid enabled) has the feature disabled and there is no user utility allowing it to be enabled (anymore).   I bought the Caviar Blacks because they are rated as one of the most reliable drives, but I can't set them up as a raid 0.   Glad I found this out before I had all of this setup.  Guess I'll call OWC and see if they sympathize at all and will let me swap out the drives.  If not I may migrate my loose hard drive backups to them and store them offsite.

I probably won't buy another WD drive at this point because it appears to be a completely artificial limitation .  The fact it isn't disclosed appropriately and customers are getting burned by this.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2010, 11:14:29 pm »

Photoshop will always create a scratch disk page file regardless of the amount of ram you may have. The question is when PS will hit the point where it HAS to write to disk...if you NEVER drop below 100% Efficiency (you can set the image window to display this) the odds are you aren't hitting scratch and everything will be processed all in ram–particularly if you have 16+ GBs installed with PS CS5 as a 64-bit app.
Thanks Jeff.  Very helpful.  I may need to go more than 24gigs of RAM, I'll use the efficiency tip to watch that.
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Christopher

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2010, 01:56:18 am »

I haven't read everything, but I can tell you my experience. I'm running a 12 core, 48GB, multible SSDs, HDDs platform for a few months now.

- As System file a SSD is great. However, I would go with one disk. OR if you are really doing a RAID 0 USE SLC based SSDS. I can't stress that enough. TRIMM, won't work in RAID0 and even though used performance of SSDs has gone up it still isn't that good.

- This leads me to a second point. I haven't tested two SSDs against 3-4 HDDs, BUT I can tell you that a single SSD isn't faster than two 500GB HDDs.  In the end I choose 4 HDDs in RAID 0 for scratch, and I can tell you I'm very happy with it.

- WD drives: WHAT ? I'm running Caviar Blacks in a RAID 5 in two different computers without ANY problems at all.

If you have any other questions, I'll be happy to help.
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Christopher Hauser
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feppe

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 04:07:43 am »

- WD drives: WHAT ? I'm running Caviar Blacks in a RAID 5 in two different computers without ANY problems at all.

I raise your data point with mine: my Raptor died and RMA took well over a month after several frustrating email exchanges with their customer "support," most of them who were not helpful at all or didn't deliver on their promises. I will never again buy WD.

ChristopherBarrett

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2010, 07:57:25 am »

Man, I'm glad I started this thread.  Lots of good points! I think I'm likely to go with 48gb RAM in 6 chips, 1 SSD for OS/Apps and really not sure about the rest right now.

I may sign up for a consult with Lloyd Chambers, who's testing his own Westmere machine right now.

As for spinners, I've got 5 Seagate Barracudas (5 years of use) in an eSATA Raid (affectionately known as ScratchBox) and three WD RE4's in the Drobo Pro for the last 6 months and have had no drive failures... *knocks on the kitchen table*

CB
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Jack Flesher

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2010, 11:39:31 am »

Wayne et al:

A further comment on WD drives and RAID:  TLER *should* not affect RAID-0 installations because there is no error control in R-0 to begin with (at least on MAC).  BUT! I have not personally tested it, nor do I want to be a guinea pig with my image files.  It definitely can be an issue with other RAID's, especially RAID-5, so why I recommend avoiding them for RAID installations in general.   Note also that large WD drives prior to about November 2009 did not have TLER and RAIDed just fine.  

Also, DROBO deals with their RAID differently, and it is so slow I suspect the TLER WD drives would not present an issue there either.  But again have not personally tested that so caution is advised and probably wise to ask DROBO directly first.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 11:47:35 am by Jack Flesher »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2010, 03:50:58 pm »

- WD drives: WHAT ? I'm running Caviar Blacks in a RAID 5 in two different computers without ANY problems at all.
I'm sure there are many factors on how dependable using the caviar blacks are in a raid.  Some research on the web shows the problem with caviar black drives is recent due to a change in firmware sometime late in 2009.  WD made a decision to disable TLER on standard drives, requiring you to purchase a RE version drive to have it.  If you use non RE drives in a raid there is a distinct possibility that you may exceed the timeout limit of the raid controller, which will then drop the drive from the raid and force you to rebuild.  TLER is really not about verifying data, it is more about making sure the raid controller doesn't inadvertently think one of the drives in a raid has failed. If any one drive in the raid has TLER enabled, it will actually function for the entire raid.  If the drives are older than about 6 months or so, chances are they have TLER enabled as this was before WD made the change.

So despite the fact some Caviar blacks work just fine in a raid, current caviar blacks have different firmware than older ones, and if you are setting up a new raid now, using a non RE WD drive in a raid is a crap shoot, with a lot of factors involved (OS controlled soft raid or hardware controlled raid, raid type etc.).  As Jack mentioned, in a raid 0 it shouldn't matter ... but I have seen some mentioned problems even with this setup so I think I'm switching to Seagates.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 04:18:59 pm by Wayne Fox »
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John.Murray

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 07:59:14 pm »

Western Digital has a utility (ms-dos based, you *cannot* run this from Windows) to toggle TLER on or off depending on application.  This explanation of TLER is as good as any:

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1397&p_sid=1fPqzI-i&p_lva=1478&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9OCZwX3Byb2RzPTAmcF9jYXRzPTAmcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9mbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1UTEVS&p_li=

I just looked on WD's site and am unable to locate the link to download, if you are interested in aquiring it contact me
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Christopher

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Re: Scratch Size?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 02:49:25 am »

As far as I know WD warns to use it on newer drives because it can damge them.
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