Canon G12?

[Fritzer]

I'm inclined to doubt that you have actually used these cameras.  The on-print image quality is really surprising, I have printed the S90 at up to 17x22, and as long as you don't have your nose to the print they look very nice.  See also: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml

I've used an S90 for some testing, and it's great for what it is.
What it is is a low-quality P&S camera, a G11 in a small package .

Printing: 17x22 prints are clearly not possible without making it a case study on why it's better to use a larger sensor.
That said, I think I still have a print in my portfolio of a shot taken with a G2, size is about 5x7 , plus extensive retouching .

[stamper]

I printed 10x8's out of my G2 camera that were good enough to win camera club competitions. If your standards are that exacting why are you using small sensor cameras? Are you sure you know the process involved in all of this or are you simply being provocative?

[Erick Boileau]

I am sure one can win a competition with an iPhone

[Gordon Buck]

I got my G12 yesterday, got the battery charged and played around a bit with it. So far, so good. I've had good experiences with a G3 and G9 (still have both) and I'm about to take the G12 out for a walk.

[stamper]

I am sure one can win a competition with an iPhone

Which make would you suggest? The image quality obviously differs? Some might be terrible.

[AFairley]

Printing: 17x22 prints are clearly not possible without making it a case study on why it's better to use a larger sensor.

This must explain why I have twp 17x22s on my wall side by side, one shot with an S90 and the other shot with a cropped sensor DSLR, and at a normal viewing distance of say 8 feet, the S90 print does not really give anything up to the DSLR (urban scenes full of detail, low ISO, high shutter speed, sweet spot aperture).  From a foot away, a different story, but the S90 holds its own amazingly well -- sort of the difference between a kit lens and high end glass on the same body.  Admittedly, the shooting conditions were not particularly challenging.  I suppose that now you'll say that I either don't know how to use a camera or don't know how to print . . . .

[DaFu]

Here's a G10 sample. ISO 200. Printed just dandy at 11x17 and could certainly go larger. I have many, many others in widely differing styles that work just as well. There is no doubt there are some things you just can't do with G10-style cameras but they can produce really satisfying images and the camera does fit in your pocket. I saw an S95 the other day. Unbelievably small and deeply tempting.

Dave

[stamper]

I have the Canon s90 and I have a Nikon d300 and Nikon d700. The images IMO from the s90 compares favourably with the Nikon's but they are different. Anyone who has seen Canon images and Nikon images will know what I am talking about. All of this is subjective but what I don't accept is that the Canon's image quality is terrible or a similar adjective. The difference between the cameras is that the handling from the Nikon's is a lot better and flexible and the lenses are obviously better. The Canon is fiddly to use and the options are more limited. Regarding images posted on the web to show image quality between two or more cameras is meaningless. You can't judge them in this way.

[Gordon Buck]

I just found what I hope is a firmware bug in my new G12.  When used with non-Canon flash or wireless trigger, the LCD goes blank when the shutter button is half-pressed to focus -- makes it a bit difficult to compose.  My G9 worked fine with the same equipment.  Does anyone use the G10 or G11 this way? 

[Gordon Buck]

I've had some correspondence with Canon by email and just got off the phone with their technical support regarding the screen blanking when using non-Canon accessories in the hot shoe.  (The screen really doesn't go blank, it shows the manual exposure effect which is often dark.) Apparently I'm the first to complain and, basically, they are not responsible.  No firmware updates are scheduled at this time.  Although I understand, I don't like it and will be returning the G12 because I use flash triggers and off-camera flash quite a bit.  I still think this is a firmware bug and will be fixed with an update.  If so and soon, perhaps I'll give the G12 another try.

[Fritzer]

 I suppose that now you'll say that I either don't know how to use a camera or don't know how to print . . . .

Far from it.
I merely assue you have little experience with using FF cameras and DB cameras.
And are not in an environment that encourages you to try harder for decent prints.
No shame in that.

[Luis Argerich]

What I like about these cameras is that you can put them in a pocket and if you find a scene worth a photo you can take a panorama and create a super-resolution image with plenty of detail and amazing IQ. It's a great compromise solution between carrying all the "working" equipment and being able not to miss a great scene.
With good light a 4 or 5 shots pano with a G camera is very very similar to a DSLR shot. With low light the DSLR always wins.

[AFairley]

Far from it.
I merely assue you have little experience with using FF cameras and DB cameras.
And are not in an environment that encourages you to try harder for decent prints.
No shame in that.

If you had bothered to read my post, you will see that I was talking about crop sensor DSLRs and the S90.  I'm not sure where FF and DB figure into the equation.  And if you have to have FF or DB gear to get "decent prints," then I guess I'm just screwed.  In any event, neither your comments nor your derogatory tone add anything useful to the discussion here, which is about a pocket camera, after all.

[DaveL]

Owning both an S90 and a G10, I would most definitely go for the s95 instead of the G12.

After a round of DxO, very similar performance in a smaller and cheaper package that is a much better complement to a DSLR IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

Thanks Bernard.
If I had it to  do again, I would go with the S95 too.


I truly enjoyed my G9 with Franiec grip as reported by Michael here.
I've regretted my G11 purchase.  Twice. (I've had 2, making it a too expensive camera.

So it would be S95 with a Franiec grip, if I were starting over.
DaveL

[Erick Boileau]

I would take the Soney NEX 5 which is  much more better than a Canon powershot

[AFairley]

I would take the Soney NEX 5 which is  much more better than a Canon powershot

But not a pocket camera, even with a pancake prime on it.

[Erick Boileau]

not a pocket camera but  good camera for  a very small size, I shall never buy again a compact with a so small sensor

[Fritzer]

If you had bothered to read my post, you will see that I was talking about crop sensor DSLRs and the S90.  I'm not sure where FF and DB figure into the equation.  And if you have to have FF or DB gear to get "decent prints," then I guess I'm just screwed.  In any event, neither your comments nor your derogatory tone add anything useful to the discussion here, which is about a pocket camera, after all.

I just so happen to do a little comparing the past few days, between FF (Canon 5DII), APS-C (Sony R1), and my new Samsung TL500 (same sensor as S95/G12, afaik, 1/1.7 size ).

The APS-C sensor is a little less than half the size of FF, the 1/1.7 about an eighth the size of the APS-C (!).
The Sony and Samsung have the same resolution at 10MP, both have supposedly good lenses, the Sony is a couple of years old, the Samsung arguably one of the best current compacts .

After a lot of huffing and puffing, I managed to squeeze a tiff image out of the Samsung, via Adobe Camera Raw and Photoshop, which actually looked surprisingly good, all things considered.
Almost as good as the out-of-the-camera jpg from the Sony.

Ok, better than the Sony jpg re. dynamic range, which I had tweaked heavily in ACR ; but detail, tonal range, gradients , no contest at all.
CA of course always an issue with tiny sensors, don't get me started on the noise .

And that is just one example out of many tests I made, judging the images only on the monitor ; I can't be arsed to waste ink and paper on prints.

Now those are just my personal impressions and my 'testing' is certainly flawed somehow, but the differences still seem to be massive between APS-C and pinky-nail sized sensors .
You can see and sense how hard the in-camera-processing is trying to put out a decent result from those small sensors.

I bought the Samsung cause I'm a sucker for articulated screens, it's smaller than the G12, with a fast Schneider lens, but I think I take it back .

[Gordon Buck]

I've had some correspondence with Canon by email and just got off the phone with their technical support regarding the screen blanking when using non-Canon accessories in the hot shoe.  (The screen really doesn't go blank, it shows the manual exposure effect which is often dark.) Apparently I'm the first to complain and, basically, they are not responsible.  No firmware updates are scheduled at this time.  Although I understand, I don't like it and will be returning the G12 because I use flash triggers and off-camera flash quite a bit.  I still think this is a firmware bug and will be fixed with an update.  If so and soon, perhaps I'll give the G12 another try.

Others are beginning to report and complain about the G12 screen blanking so my copy is not defective.  I decided to keep the G12 and hope that Canon will issue a firmware patch -- they will, won't they?  Even if there is no firmware patch, I can work around or tolerate the problem.  It's a good little camera, a minor upgrade from the G11 but a more significant upgrade from the G9.

[Philnick]

I got a G12 a few days ago. My main camera is an XTi with the EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS and an EF 70-300 IS. Image quality is very important to me, so I shoot in RAW.

Before I had the G12, I had a G9 for a few years before I dropped it on the sidewalk. My initial reaction with the G9 was that its image quality was disappointing - until I learned to avoid shooting wide open. That, plus avoiding high ISO settings (EV -1 does a better job, since RAW has the range to rescue the low midtones in computer) began to give me decent results before I turned it into a rattle.

My experience with the G12 over the past few days has been eye-opening. I carried forward the "stop it down" principle for good sharpness, but I've found that the lower MP count (10 instead of the G9's 12) makes a real difference in noise and sharpness in low light situations. I keep it in my front pants pocket - it fits easily - with a small keyring through the right-hand strap slot and a larger keyring as a step-up to anchor it to a belt-clip. The larger ring also doubles as an index-finger mount while shooting.

What I found at a jazz jam Tuesday night, sitting in the front row when I wasn't playing, was that the angled screen allowed me to shoot from my lap. Not only was that inconspicuous, it also helped considerably with steadying the camera.

I've attached two shots from that evening, one at ISO 800 and one at ISO 1600. (With the G9, ISO 400 was pushing it!) The focus is a bit off on the brighter one because the camera apparently locked on the contrasty background rather than the guitarist - since then I've figured out how to make the focus point smaller and make it follow what I locked it on while I reframe. Both were shot using EV -1.

These might not blow up to poster size, but they'd work on a 12" album cover.

No fancy tricks: opened them in DPP, had it save them out as 16 bit TIFFs, had Photoshop "Save to Web." No noise reduction applied.

PS Don't know why I can't make the forum show them as more than thumbnails - they look great full screen in Irfan View (they were saved out at the 50% size setting).