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Author Topic: Hyper Focal Distance  (Read 23329 times)

kat2290

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Hyper Focal Distance
« on: August 12, 2010, 04:36:01 am »

Hi :)

So I've been trying to get to grips with the hyper focal method to improve front to back sharpness in my images. I have been using a chart to work out the distance and everything seems to be going fine. Apart from one thing! Once I'm all set up i.e tripod, cable release, mirror lock up etc. I compose the shot, and then I check my chart to see where I should be focusing. I usually shoot at F8 around 17mm so the distance would be 1.20metres...How do I then accurately focus 1.20metres away? I have a distance scale on my lens (it's a zoom lens so its not a 'proper scale' if you know what i mean? which I refer to but after the 1 metre mark on the scale it becomes difficult (for me anyway) to accurately determine where other distances would be on the scale. Is using the scale the most accurate way on focusing on something a particular distance away or is there another way of doing it?

Kat
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Josh-H

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2010, 05:14:31 am »

If you are shooting 17mm at F8 then you are really just stressing yourself for nothing worrying about accurate Hyperfocal distance. As long as your focus point is at least 2m (just to be safe) from the front of the lens you will have infinite depth of field at F8 from roughly .75 of a metre to infinity.

In this example I would just focus roughly 1/3rd (or slightly before) into the frame (as is good practice) and everything will be tack sharp.

Personally, I find hyperfocal distance more useful at the telephoto end where DOF is much narrower.

You dont say what your camera is - but if you have life view, then use it to select a point roughly a third into the frame, zoom in 10X (or as much as possible) and get critical focus that way - stop to F8 and you will get great results.

Give the above a try - you wont be disappointed with the results.


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NikoJorj

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2010, 05:20:41 am »

I'll not completely agree with Josh-H : beware that an hyperfocal calculation may well decrease your sharpness, especially at infinity...

Focusing at 1.20m at 17mm f/8 will give you at infinity a blur circle about 30µm on the sensor, ie a blur extending on about 4 or 6 pixels depending on the camera you use. Would you call that "tack sharp"?

Moreover, blurs always add to each other ; in other terms, even if the defocusing blur circle is a bit smaller than the pixel pitch, you may still see some small loss of sharpness relative to the perfect, in-focus zone (this especially if you shoot with a very sharp lens and/or a sensor with weak or inexistant AA filter and print big, so we may count how many angels can sit on the top of a microlens here).

That said, some small "differential sharpness" may be quite efficient to separate a foreground subject from its still-readable background, adding a tad of that much-praised "3d look" to your image.
For me who am affected with a bit of myopia, the contrary (blurred foreground, sharp background) is not as efficient, but your myopia may vary - and I'd say giving the maximal sharpness to the main subject may be the most efficient strategy in most cases.

Bottom lines :
- don't ever expect the result of an hyperfocal calculation to be equally sharp, especially if you take into account the 30µm circle of confusion dating of the middle of last century,
- focusing on a physical subject rather than on a calculated distance may be first easier and second prettier,
- to gauge the effect on a print, carefully inspect the print itself, taking into account the subject matter.
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fike

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2010, 10:38:56 am »

Most good hyperfocal calculators will allow you to specify the circle of confusion.  .30 is too high. For a cropped sensor camera, I use .19.  I arrived at this number with some gross experimentation, so don't take it as gospel.

As for how to focus at a specific distance...I don't use the markings on the lens barrel.  I generally pick an object that is approximately the correct distance away and use the AF button to focus on that--generally erring on objects closer rather than farther because infinity is never really that focused (distance, haze, etc...).  Then I recompose and shoot my shot. 

As others have pointed out, using hyperfocal distances in your photography is a good idea, but it is a compromise.  Theoretically, your best focus will be achieved in a very narrow focal plane at your widest aperture.  As you stop down the aperture, you are decreasing the focus acuity at the focus plane and averaging the focus quality across a wider depth of field.  For this reason, I rarely shoot at f/22.  The averaging affect of the focus makes the image look garbled to me. 

For any lens, you should do some experiments to determine what the aperture has the best performance, then using that aperture, look at your hyperfocal calculator and consider the key subject matter in your shot before choosing where to focus.  They hyperfocal calculator simply helps you avoid (or in some situations maximize) wasting good depth of field outside the image capture area. 
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 11:47:10 am »

You need to read Merklinger's "the ins and outs of focus"
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elf

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 11:34:38 pm »

You need to read Merklinger's "the ins and outs of focus"

+1  I've seen several tests of both methods and Merklinger always wins :)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2010, 04:12:15 am »

I'll not completely agree with Josh-H : beware that an hyperfocal calculation may well decrease your sharpness, especially at infinity...

Focusing at 1.20m at 17mm f/8 will give you at infinity a blur circle about 30µm on the sensor, ie a blur extending on about 4 or 6 pixels depending on the camera you use. Would you call that "tack sharp"?

Moreover, blurs always add to each other ; in other terms, even if the defocusing blur circle is a bit smaller than the pixel pitch, you may still see some small loss of sharpness relative to the perfect, in-focus zone (this especially if you shoot with a very sharp lens and/or a sensor with weak or inexistant AA filter and print big, so we may count how many angels can sit on the top of a microlens here).

That said, some small "differential sharpness" may be quite efficient to separate a foreground subject from its still-readable background, adding a tad of that much-praised "3d look" to your image.
For me who am affected with a bit of myopia, the contrary (blurred foreground, sharp background) is not as efficient, but your myopia may vary - and I'd say giving the maximal sharpness to the main subject may be the most efficient strategy in most cases.

Bottom lines :
- don't ever expect the result of an hyperfocal calculation to be equally sharp, especially if you take into account the 30µm circle of confusion dating of the middle of last century,
- focusing on a physical subject rather than on a calculated distance may be first easier and second prettier,
- to gauge the effect on a print, carefully inspect the print itself, taking into account the subject matter.

I fully agree with Nicolas.

Most criticism about hyperfocal calculations is not founded, it usually comes down to improper use of the method. Unlike film, digital sensors have a hard limitation of maximum resolution, namely the sensel size. Detail cannot be sharper than the sensel size. When using that sensel size, or rather the sensel pitch, as a COC criterion, then nothing can be sharper, even at the horizon. When the COC is set to the sensel pitch, then the hyperfocal blur circle at infinity will be exactly the size of one sensel.

Nicolas is correct that lens blur and the diffraction blur add (their MTFs multiply), but there is some leeway due to the AA-filter and the Raw conversion process, and the overpowering effect of defocus on the combined system MTF. In my experience a COC of 1.5x the sensel pitch will not produce visible blur, especially after proper sharpening. With advanced (deconvolution) sharpening one might push it a bit further, but my rule of thumb of 1.5x sensel pitch works fine for me with the planning of a shoot. It also tells me, should maximum DOF sharpness be needed, at which distances I need to focus for focus stacking). BTW, there is also a rule of thumb for the aperture number that produces a diffraction blur of 1.5x the sensel pitch. Just take the sensel pitch expressed in microns, and multiply that by a factor of 1.108, and the aperture number is the result. So a 6.4 micron sensel pitch camera will start to suffer from visible loss of microdetail (at the pixel level!) at apertures narrower than f/7.1. How much of that loss of microdetail at the pixel level is still tolerable is a matter of personal choice. Perhaps the image will not be blown up to huge proportions, in which case the overall DOF effect becomes more important than pixel accurate microdetail.

Then focusing at the indicated distance(s), either manually (for focus stacking where the camera shouldn't move) or with AF will work fine, although at larger distances it's still a bit of a guess (unless you use e.g. a laser distance finder).

Having said all that, there can be a clear benefit to just focusing on the main subject, and letting the DOF fall where it does, but that depends on the scene at hand, and the output size.

Cheers,
Bart
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feppe

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2010, 07:19:00 am »

There's a very good article on focusing right here on LL, light on technical jargon but high on application is.

I use Liveview to focus. I understand it's the most reliable way to focus when you're on a tripod and not in a hurry - someone correct me if I'm wrong. I just put the focus point on whatever I want to be in focus, taking into account the teachings from the article above.

edit: it seems to be based on Merklinger's article mentioned above! Given Merklinger's article, how does sensor size enter the rule-of-thumbs? ie. I use 1.6 and 2.0 crop factor digital cameras, and MF and LF film cameras - are the lens focal lengths to be converted to 35mm format equivalents?

Also, from the conclusion of Merklinger article:
Quote
For typical normal and wide-angle lenses, especially lenses having focal lengths less than about 50 mm no matter what the camera format, set the lens opening to somewhere in the 2 mm to 5 mm range, set the focus at infinity, and shoot.  For lens openings larger than 5 mm, and for longer lenses that tends to mean all normal working f-stops, focus on what is critically important.  The same is true of close-up photography no matter what the lens.

(emphasis mine) How do I determine the size of the lens opening?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2010, 08:26:05 am by feppe »
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KenS

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 10:39:11 am »

Here's a less 'drastic' approach than Merklinger's infinity focus:

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF6.html#Hyperfocal

From  the above Norman Koren link:

"If the part of the scene at infinity is at all important in the image— it's often visually dominant— you'll be disappointed with the sharpness, which is only 40% that of a high quality lens in focus; about one third what the eye can distinguish. Merklinger recommends focusing at infinity— you lose very little forward depth of field. I feel safe setting infinity focus opposite the far DOF mark corresponding to 2 stops larger than the actual f-stop setting (half the number). For example, if you are using f/8, it's safe to put the far f/4 DOF mark opposite infinity. It's a judgment call. When you make it, think about what parts of the image will be dominant. There is no rule to blindly follow. "

nma

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 05:57:13 pm »

I am not sure this is responsive to your question. But I use the 5Dii which offers a live view display of the image. The importance of this feature for landscape photography has not been fully appreciated by most of the reviewers. One uses manual focus and a tripod.The mirror is automatically locked up by pushing the LV button (Michael, did you hear that? Canon responded to your complaints :~] ). In live view with exposure simulation mode one has a real-time histogram and the ability to explore the image focus at 5x or 10x magnification. This allows one to gauge the depth of field and get optimal focus. I say optimal focus because it eliminates the cameras focusing system; one sees the image derived directly from the sensor; focus points don't matter. It's slow but sure. I have my jpeg parameters turned down to neutralize the display - no sharpening and low saturation. This results in a reasonably accurate real-time histogram, meaning I can expose to the right with confidence.  Live View is the digital equivalent of the ground glass and focusing cloth, except the image is right side up.

Hope this is useful to you.
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Jack Varney

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 10:34:26 pm »


Also, from the conclusion of Merklinger article:
(emphasis mine) How do I determine the size of the lens opening?

Since: f number = focal length/aperture diameter you can solve the equation for diameter.

e.g.
Where f = f number, L = focal length and d = aperture diameter, then

diameter d = L/f.  For a 50mm lens at f/8 the diameter would be  d = 50/8 = 6.25mm.
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Jack Varney

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2010, 11:35:12 am »

Interesting reading.  I think this is exactly the kind of discussion that gives the LL fora the reputation as being the place for the measurbators to hang out on the web. ;)
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feppe

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2010, 12:30:27 pm »

Since: f number = focal length/aperture diameter you can solve the equation for diameter.

e.g.
Where f = f number, L = focal length and d = aperture diameter, then

diameter d = L/f.  For a 50mm lens at f/8 the diameter would be  d = 50/8 = 6.25mm.


Thanks!

Interesting reading.  I think this is exactly the kind of discussion that gives the LL fora the reputation as being the place for the measurbators to hang out on the web. ;)

It's all fun and games until someone gets an irredeemably out-of-focus shot of Elvis.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2010, 12:55:40 pm »

Hi,

Since upgrading from 135 to MF and than full frame digital I essentially have found that there is essentially no depth of field. The only thing that gets really sharp is what you focus on.

In essence I also found that it is also reasonable to stop down to f/16, going beyond that we start to loose a little bit to much.

So my experience is:

- Focus on what's important
- Stop down if needed
- Hope for the best

Best regards
Erik
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2010, 01:22:49 pm »

Hi,

Since upgrading from 135 to MF and than full frame digital I essentially have found that there is essentially no depth of field. The only thing that gets really sharp is what you focus on.


In essence I also found that it is also reasonable to stop down to f/16, going beyond that we start to loose a little bit to much.

So my experience is:

- Focus on what's important
- Stop down if needed
- Hope for the best

Best regards
Erik
This is the argument for:
Medium Format Digital View Cameras - you can control the position of the plane of sharpest focus
and Focus stacking.

f8 works for 2d subjects, but for heads and other 3d objects, f16 works better!
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Rob C

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2010, 04:53:02 pm »

Thanks!

It's all fun and games until someone gets an irredeemably out-of-focus shot of Elvis.



Maybe that would be a blessing in disguise?

Rob C

Wayne Fox

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2010, 10:35:29 pm »

Thanks!

It's all fun and games until someone gets an irredeemably out-of-focus shot of Elvis.

Hey!  then we could go over to that de-convolution discussion and see if we can de-convolute Elvis back :)
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Destiny

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2010, 07:28:05 am »

That is quite an interesting discussion.
Do you know if for FF cameras the circle of confusion is the same as for film? ie 0.03mm?
When I finally get some time I am planning to run some test comparing the WA approach to hyper-focal focussing at smaller apertures (f8-f16) for my own use.
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KenS

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2010, 02:44:44 pm »

That is quite an interesting discussion.
Do you know if for FF cameras the circle of confusion is the same as for film? ie 0.03mm?
When I finally get some time I am planning to run some test comparing the WA approach to hyper-focal focussing at smaller apertures (f8-f16) for my own use.


Unless you don't plan on printing any larger than 8x10 inches you do NOT want to use 0.03mm for a FF DSLR.  That CoC is even too large for film and goes back many decades to the days when 8x10 was considered a large print.  Lens manufacturer's just stuck with the old ~-.03 mm value even as film and digital resolution increased along with print size.

If no one else responds I'll post some useful references for you (which I don't have access to at the moment) but recommendations for DSLR are sometimes 1 to 1.5 x the pixel pitch. For a Canon 5D II I think that works out to approx 1.5 * 6micron = 0.009 mm.  I think some would argue this is too aggressive and you could consider an alternative calculation based on the largest print size you want to make and how close you want a person with normal vision to peer at it.  As I recall (I'll check reference later) for a 24 x 36 inch print viewed from 20 inches (pretty close) the CoC would need to be 0.016 mm.


NikoJorj

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Re: Hyper Focal Distance
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2010, 05:49:31 pm »

Do you know if for FF cameras the circle of confusion is the same as for film? ie 0.03mm?
It may be the same as for fine grained and sharp (B&W) film, but definitely not 30µm.
1 to 2 pixels is a good starting base ; the best is to see for yourself.
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Nicolas from Grenoble
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