Questions about HM Photo Rag Baryta on z3200

[SergeyT]

I got some of the HM Photo Rag Baryta and tried it on a z3200 as follows:
1. Downloaded and installed the correct paper preset from hp.com
2. Color Calibrated the paper
3. Used the "canned" z3200ps (why are they "ps" ?) profiles for soft-proofing and printing
4. Printed some B&W and Color images (GE ON, 600dpi, Best, Max details, EconoMode)

My initial impressions:
A. On B&W, shadows details got blocked (could be my fault with tone curves while soft-proofing). Don't remember having this issue with HP Satin or matte papers.
B. On both Color and B&W the printed area gloss (EconoMode) is significantly more shiny then the non printed area gloss. Coming from Satin papers I would say reflects the light like crazy.
C. The colors are spot on to my naked eye.
I do not like the blocked shadows and before I settle for different curves in PS do I have to look into tunning the preset (if yes, how? ) and or create a custom profile?
I would prefer to have the printed area gloss to closely match the non-printed area. Is it possible at all or should I leave things the way they are as being the best I could expect from this paper on z3200? Do I have to look into tunning the paper preset (if yes, any recommendations on how? ) . Once the preset changed should I "calibrate color" and/or create a custom profile?
Should I try printing with GE OFF?

So far I think that HP Professional Satin is a better paper overall for at least color (much less shiny, almost no bronzing and almost no GD).
The HMFA Photo Rag Baryta delivers sligthly sharper and more "dynamic" images...Looking at the prints side by side perfectly straight I would give my preference to PRB over HP Prof Satin... But that instantly changes when looking at the prints from an angle... I wish I could match the printed and non-printed area gloss

[SergeyT]

Change Gloss Enhancer from Economode to Full Page. I think you will be pleased.

[SergeyT]

After seeing the amount of gloss differential (GD) and bronzing in my initial prints, I could hardly believe that anyone would use the paper on a z.
 I finally checked the paper preset for HM Photo Rag Baryta and found out that the Gloss Enhancer is set at 43%
Have changed that gradually to 67, 85 and 100%, printing the same set of B&W images with each setting. The 100% one gave the least GD and bronzing. Now with GE at 100% the prints on that paper can be called usable. I will have to check more closely in the day light tomorrow.

BTW, the preset for HP Baryta has the GE at 40%.  

Question: Does the change to GE amount in the preset invalidate the profile? Do I have to create a new profile?

[jasdown]

3. Used the "canned" z3200ps (why are they "ps" ?) profiles for soft-proofing and printing

SergeyT,

I don't think you want to use the Z3200ps profile for this paper unless you have a Postscript model Z3200. For a regular Z3200, I would think you should search for a profile without the "ps" suffix.

[Roscolo]

SergeyT,

I don't think you want to use the Z3200ps profile for this paper unless you have a Postscript model Z3200. For a regular Z3200, I would think you should search for a profile without the "ps" suffix.

Better yet, skip the canned profiles altogether and just profile the paper with the z3200.

[SergeyT]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

What are your GE% for the paper?

[Roscolo]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone!

What are your GE% for the paper?

I'm using the z3100. I calibrated and profiled a roll of Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta just using the HP Baryta Satin preset. Didn't change the GE settings or anything, and the prints are beautiful. Very little gloss differential or bronzing, and I'm very picky about gloss differential (hate it). Seems like the shadows were a little dense even after profiling, but that was easily resolved.

[SergeyT]

I'm using the z3100. I calibrated and profiled a roll of Hahnemule Photo Rag Baryta just using the HP Baryta Satin preset. Didn't change the GE settings or anything, and the prints are beautiful. Very little gloss differential or bronzing, and I'm very picky about gloss differential (hate it). Seems like the shadows were a little dense even after profiling, but that was easily resolved.

Could you please check what is the GE % in your z3100 HP Baryta Satin preset?
And I do not have "HP Baryta Satin" preset in my z3200. What I have there is "HP Baryte Photo Paper" with GE = 48%

[Roscolo]

Could you please check what is the GE % in your z3100 HP Baryta Satin preset?
And I do not have "HP Baryta Satin" preset in my z3200. What I have there is "HP Baryte Photo Paper" with GE = 48%

As I thought, GE for the HP Baryte Satin Preset on the z3100 is 100%. I couldn't think of any reason GE would be less than 100%.
Check and make sure your firmware is latest. I don't see much showing up when I search for "HP Baryte Photo" but a lot shows up when I search for "HP Baryte Satin Art"

Perhaps you are confusing GE % with Ink Limit?

[SergeyT]

As I thought, GE for the HP Baryte Satin Preset on the z3100 is 100%. I couldn't think of any reason GE would be less than 100%.

Thank you ! That makes perfect sense.
Anyone who wonders what made me want to throw the roll out of the window - make some prints on the HM Photo Rag Baryta with GE = 43%    

More on the subject...
I downloaded the z3200\HFA_HPZ3200_PRBaryta from www.hahnemuehle.com the OMS file is:
06/03/2008  12:07 PM         6,410,030 HFA_HPZ3200_PRBaryta.oms

Comparing that with the OMS from hp.com
06/03/2008  12:07 PM         6,410,030 HP_Z3200ps_HFA_PhotoRag_Baryta.oms

Beside the names they are identical! I just do not want to go through another printer re-boot to prove it.

[SergeyT]

As I thought, GE for the HP Baryte Satin Preset on the z3100 is 100%. I couldn't think of any reason GE would be less than 100%.
Check and make sure your firmware is latest. I don't see much showing up when I search for "HP Baryte Photo" but a lot shows up when I search for "HP Baryte Satin Art"

Perhaps you are confusing GE % with Ink Limit?

Nope. GE is the last edit box in the paper preset properties window. The link limit is right above.
All the paper presets have ink limit =100% (even "those less" and "more ink" ones, which is funny)
All the glossy paper presets in my z3200 have GE=100%
The "HP Baryte Photo" under Photo paper has GE=48%
The original "HFA Phot Rag Baryta" under Addl Media had it at 43%

My firmware was last upgraded about a year ago and I do not want to mess around with it finding the "new cool features" breaking of what has been working for me just fine. Beside the paper presets are dated 2008. I do not think it has anything to do with the firmware, the colors and tones closely match to my soft-proofs.
Now with the GE set at 100% the prints are definitely usable, although in bronzing and GD departments the HP Professional Satin is the king. The ink(images) on the Prof Satin "integrate" into the paper surface as perfectly as I could imagine (and better then on the HP ID Satin).

[Roscolo]

You may want to check the firmware when you have time. I was using older firmware on the z3100 and just upgraded about a week ago.

Sounds like you have it going now. I would profile the Hahn Photo Rag Baryta using the HP Baryte Satin Art setting and see if there is any improvement.

I see the z3200 has the option of downloading the Hahn Photo Rag Baryta preset. No such option for z3100 that I'm aware of, but sounds like that GE setting being less than 100% was at least part of your problem.

Is there a difference between "HP Baryte Photo" paper  and "HP Baryte Satin Art" paper?

[SergeyT]

Sounds like you have it going now.

Yes, Thank you for your help!

I would profile the Hahn Photo Rag Baryta using the HP Baryte Satin Art setting and see if there is any improvement.

I do not have any of HP Baryte Satin Art setting in the paper list in my z. I did not ever delete anything.

... sounds like that GE setting being less than 100% was at least part of your problem.

I think that was the only problem...
I also think I picked the "right" images for my tests. The ones that show the trace of bronzing and gloss differencial even at 100%GE have a variety of large areas of similar level of whites, grays and blacks connecting to each other. For example huge thunder clouds over a lake , shot on BW film through a red filter. The transition from the white cloud to the almost black sky show the gloss differences and some bronzing in darker areas. But I have to look for them under some 10-15 d. angle to see. Although barely noticable they are there. None of it can be seen on the HP Pro Satin no matter how hard I look.
Some other images with smaller same tone areas BW images on HM PRB look as perfect as it gets.

I like the Photo Rag Baryta but think it is somewhat over-rated...At least at the price being 2x of HP Pro Satin.
Next thing to do is to apply some warm tonning to my HP Prof Satin images to match the warmer rendring of the MH PRB and see if I can tell one from another ...
During this test I have put  an HP Prof Satin BW print next to a darkroom print on an Ilford MC Fiber and I can't tell them apart.

Is there a difference between "HP Baryte Photo" paper  and "HP Baryte Satin Art" paper?

I have no experience with neither if those papers, which in reality could be the same thing.
I have double checked and I do not have "HP Baryte Satin Art" in my z.
But I have "HP Baryte Photo" and "Photo Paryte Paper" in the z. Both under Photo Paper category and both having identical settings including GE=48%

[SergeyT]

Well, I have "found" this http://h10088.www1.hp.com/gap/Data/Working...nter_Series.pdf

And it explains what more and what less ink mean.
The HP Baryte Photo Paper preset is similar to pro satin (ink limit at 46) with the exception of the star-wheel position.
The Photo Baryte Paper preset limits the ink at 32.5 (less ink).

Another thing to notice is that the pro satin and baryte are limited to 14 passes while the ID satin is still at 16 passes.
They all used to be at 16 for z3100.

The "Fine Art Barite Paper" for z3100 has the link limit at 32 and allows for 16 passes. More info on z3100 presets is here http://z3100users.wikispaces.com/file/view...per_6.0.0.8.pdf

[artobest]

I had trouble with black and white images on the HP PR Baryta with my 3200ps - greys blocking up and posterization.

I tried the canned profile, then reprofiling with the built-in spectro, but to no avail. The problem sometimes did, and sometimes, didn't show up in PS softproofing.

In the end I did an extended-blacks profile using a Spyder3Print and the Photo Baryta media type, if I remember correctly. That completely solved the problem, although I'd be reluctant to use this profile for colour work.

[SergeyT]

I had trouble with black and white images on the HP PR Baryta with my 3200ps - greys blocking up and posterization.

Thank you for the response.
I can see none of these in my prints. But I'm using different paper : HM PRB vs HP.
All the tones are as smooth as I can see them on both my screen and on Pro Satin.
The dark tones are slightly darker then soft-proof still. I think they are a perfect match to my Pro Satin prints which are also slightly darker then the soft-proof. But all my prints on ID Satin are precise match to soft-proof. Overall since the GD and bronzing issues are all gone, I'm very-very pleased with the BW images on HM PRB even with the canned profile (for now).

Working on this lead me to some interesting observations and some additional questions, which I will share and ask in a seprate thread.

[artobest]

Sorry, I meant the Hahnemuhle, not the HP.