improving B/W on z3200

[keith_cooper]

I'm just doing some testing on a z3200ps that HP have kindly lent me and was wondering about ways of improving the linearity of B/W output using HP Hahnemuhle SFA (or any similar paper for that matter)

Deep shadows are just a bit blocked up - not that much, but it's the sort of thing that if I was printing on my 7880 using Epson ABW mode, I might look at using a QTR profile to linnearise the response (which it does very well).

Not being overly familiar with the profiling options with the built in spectro in the HP (I don't have the APS software at the moment), I was wondering whether there are any BW print quality tips anyone could share?  As a 'built in' paper, I've run the calibration steps for the HP SFA paper setting. Is there any advantage (for B/W) in running profiling with the built in spectro as well?

BTW I've got the printer for a while to look at, so if there are any specific questions anyone has got, please feel free to mail me and I'll see what I can do :-)

[neil snape]

The only way I found to use the 3200 in B&W is to use ICC profiles. Both the onboard HP profiler and the optional APS profiles are fine for this. The equivalent ABW mode doesn't work with the 3200 , the print with in greyscale with K inks only are far off the potential of the printer using ICC profiles which in most cases still use grey inks only being an advantage with HP in that when you have equal r=g=b values , only grey inks are applied.

You can tone and or split tone using the panel if you like but the results are just as good in Photoshop/LightRoom with your own tone curves

[Ernst Dinkla]

The only way I found to use the 3200 in B&W is to use ICC profiles. Both the onboard HP profiler and the optional APS profiles are fine for this. The equivalent ABW mode doesn't work with the 3200 , the print with in greyscale with K inks only are far off the potential of the printer using ICC profiles which in most cases still use grey inks only being an advantage with HP in that when you have equal r=g=b values , only grey inks are applied.

You can tone and or split tone using the panel if you like but the results are just as good in Photoshop/LightRoom with your own tone curves

Neil,

So it is different to the Z3100 ?  I have used the Z3100 B&W driver mode with the printer CM on, application CM off (HP recommendation) and greyscale images that had a custom QTR profile P2P conversion in Photoshop. QTR profile made with the  QTR 4x21 random patch target, printed on a fresh calibrated Z3100 and measured with the  SpectroCam. I actually calibrated the printer once based on a standard HP media preset, measured the calibration target heaviest black patches whether Dmax was at 100%, made a custom media preset that had a 1 or 2 % ink limt as the Dmax was on the second patch, calibrated again on that custom media preset. To me that gave me the best Dmax and good shadow detail. It is more or less like Keith does with Epson's ABW. I think it was Steve Kale who used this hybrid QTR<>ABW method first on his Epson 2400. Of course without the nice calibration possible on the Zs.

A better description is in this thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/lo...php/t28046.html

As it is taking more time and this method can't be used in Qimage together with color prints on one print page  there will not be that much lost if the result in Dmax and shadow detail is the same with the Z3200 color mode. Qimage also allows individual profiling and rendering per image in the print page.  Which may be another way to treat B&W and color differently.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[William Morse]

Hi Keith (and others)

This just caught my eye- About the shadows blocking up, do you remember if the conversion to the z3200 profile was done in PS, or somewhere else?

The reason I ask, is I have found significant blocking up of deep shadows (<90%) in files converted (to z3200 profiles created in APS, both using perceptual and RC) in PS, whereas the same files print fine in Qimage, with Qimage doing the conversion. I have found this in all the conversions I have tested, including HP SFA, HP TFA, Ilford GFS, and Hahn. William Turner.

My tests indicate that a QTR profile is not going to correct this problem, as it is too severe  with tones  <95%.

So far, I haven't found anyone else with the same report, so don't know if it's peculiar to my system, or a problem in PS, or APS, or both.

Deep shadows are just a bit blocked up - not that much, but it's the sort of thing that if I was printing on my 7880 using Epson ABW mode, I might look at using a QTR profile to linearize the response (which it does very well).

[deanwork]

I have found in the past that as Neil has suggested, printing out of RGB which adds an ICC profile to the mix in addition to the standard linearization ( HP calls profiling for some reason) increases shadow detail, especially in the >250 gsm media preset for matte rag media.

I also find the conversion done by Q-Image to work very will with monochrome work. Never tried running a QTR curve through the standard driver.

In addition, a lot of my work is very slightly "neutralized" for matte rag media like the Canson Edition Etching that I like so much.
I send an RGB file to Q-Image, tagged with the icc profiles for that paper. My technique is to use a Photoshop Hue Saturation adjustment layer to set print color - H-40/ S-3 is the most common zone for me. This very slightly warms up what would otherwise be cooler more selenium hue on these kinds of papers. I also find that it produces a smoother color transition between the white of the paper base of non-oba or slight oba rag media and the inks themselves. With the straight grayscale numbers I see a little more of a split happening between the cooler shadows and the paper base. Do one of each on the same file and see what I'm talking about here.  That slight split can be nice also, though not always desirable. For Gloss Fiber media I use a straight totally neutralized rgb file where R-G-B values are identical. This gives me the neutralized print color I like for say the Photorag Baryta and requires none of the color channels. Same with rc media.

john

[Ernst Dinkla]

Hi Keith (and others)

This just caught my eye- About the shadows blocking up, do you remember if the conversion to the z3200 profile was done in PS, or somewhere else?

The reason I ask, is I have found significant blocking up of deep shadows (<90%) in files converted (to z3200 profiles created in APS, both using perceptual and RC) in PS, whereas the same files print fine in Qimage, with Qimage doing the conversion. I have found this in all the conversions I have tested, including HP SFA, HP TFA, Ilford GFS, and Hahn. William Turner.

My tests indicate that a QTR profile is not going to correct this problem, as it is too severe  with tones  <95%.

So far, I haven't found anyone else with the same report, so don't know if it's peculiar to my system, or a problem in PS, or APS, or both.

William,

this isn't a PS on Mac and Qimage on Windows difference?

There is a difference between the Z3200 and the Z3100 on B&W printing. More in the B&W mode than in the color mode. Linearity is better on the Z3100 and comparing the calibration strip black patch to a greyscale wedge black printed through B&W mode and color mode there's more Dmax lost in the Z3200.

I never print through Photoshop. For the Z3100 however I made a QTR profile that I will use for a P2P conversion in Photoshop on the image before I print that image in Qimage with its CM off and the Z3100 B&W mode on + its CM on (the way I made the QTR profile). Elaborate but that works with little Dmax loss + good shadow detail. Linearity is excellent on a calibrated Z3100. QTR profiles on Qimage is something I don't trust.

I think HP's ColorCenter works better than APS on the Z3200 + Qimage. Both for B&W and Color through color mode. APS is however better than ColorCenter on the Z3100. Tested with Atkinson's targets. I know this sounds vague but Dmax loss is higher on the Z3200 with APS and there is a purple shift on saturated blues.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

[William Morse]

William,

this isn't a PS on Mac and Qimage on Windows difference?

There is a difference between the Z3200 and the Z3100 on B&W printing. More in the B&W mode than in the color mode. Linearity is better on the Z3100 and comparing the calibration strip black patch to a greyscale wedge black printed through B&W mode and color mode there's more Dmax lost in the Z3200.

I never print through Photoshop. For the Z3100 however I made a QTR profile that I will use for a P2P conversion in Photoshop on the image before I print that image in Qimage with its CM off and the Z3100 B&W mode on + its CM on (the way I made the QTR profile). Elaborate but that works with little Dmax loss + good shadow detail. Linearity is excellent on a calibrated Z3100. QTR profiles on Qimage is something I don't trust.

I think HP's ColorCenter works better than APS on the Z3200 + Qimage. Both for B&W and Color through color mode. APS is however better than ColorCenter on the Z3100. Tested with Atkinson's targets. I know this sounds vague but Dmax loss is higher on the Z3200 with APS and there is a purple shift on saturated blues.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Hi Ernst-

Not sure what you mean by the "PS on Mac and Qimage on Windows difference".
Also, I have seen the same problem on William Turner and somerset velvet on the z3100 and the z3200, so I don't think what I am describing is about the printer, but rather strangeness either in the APS profiles, or the PS versus Qimage conversion.

I will look into your other suggestions re: the 3200- Thanks!

Bill