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Author Topic: In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms  (Read 3715 times)

GBPhoto

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« on: June 28, 2010, 02:11:50 am »

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2012, 01:18:31 am by GBPhoto »
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JoeKitchen

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2010, 06:41:22 am »

Lets compare apples to apples, not digital drawings with everything done digitally to photographs that involve real life physical optics.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 06:44:43 am by JoeKitchen »
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Gigi

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2010, 11:34:45 am »

Quote from: JoeKitchen
Lets compare apples to apples, not digital drawings with everything done digitally to photographs that involve real life physical optics.

technically possible - sure.

The key is "information lost". If that were not an issue, why would people shoot with cumbersome cameras with movements?

PS transformations are pretty powerful. Some purist notions of technique need rethinking.... but view camera movements are still the easiest and (IMHO) best way to get perspective correction.

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ErikKaffehr

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2010, 11:52:59 am »

Hi,

My take is that there is interpolation involved so resolution is lost. It is possible to shoot several images and merge them using a panorama tool. That way we increase resolution, so we can interpolate better because of having more pixels. I frequently do that. That could of course also be done with shifts on a view camera.

Check this: http://echophoto.smugmug.com/Travel/Tivede...909595087_eBU5y

In this case I got a lot of artifacts, so I'd loved to go back and reshoot the image with more care.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Geoffreyg
technically possible - sure.

The key is "information lost". If that were not an issue, why would people shoot with cumbersome cameras with movements?

PS transformations are pretty powerful. Some purist notions of technique need rethinking.... but view camera movements are still the easiest and (IMHO) best way to get perspective correction.
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JeffKohn

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2010, 12:03:40 pm »

I question why the shot that was software-corrected is using a longer lens (even though it's simulated). I think you would need a shorter focal length than the shifted shot, because you're going to have to crop after you correct.

I agree the loss of resolution is the biggest issue with software-correcting a single shot. The more the camera needs to be tilted up/down, the more stretching will be needed to correct the image, and therefore the more resolution is lost. Very small admustments may not be an issue, but the type of adjustments that would typically be needed for architecture it's going to be a quality problem unless you're shooting for the web.

Interpolation isn't the only issue, either. You're also going to lose resolution to cropping. And the need to crop after correction also makes composing more difficult since you have to judge how much breathing room to leave around your subject.

If you can't use lens movements to correct in-camera, I think stitching is the way to go so you can at least make up for the lost resolution.
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JonathanBenoit

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2010, 02:38:38 pm »

Quote from: Geoffreyg
technically possible - sure.

This is not technically possible. You'd have to be able to do this in the real world for it to be technically possible. It may be possible in theory. I'd have to see someone test this with wider lenses that exist like a 35 and a 40 or 43.

This is a silly topic.
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JonathanBenoit

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2010, 02:40:11 pm »

Quote from: Geoffreyg
technically possible - sure.

This is not technically possible. You'd have to be able to do this in the real world for it to be technically possible. It may be possible in theory. I'd have to see someone test this with wider lenses that exist like a 35 and a 40 or 43.

This is a silly topic, but Alan, thanks for putting in the time on this.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 02:40:33 pm by JonathanBenoit »
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JonathanBenoit

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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2010, 04:47:02 pm »

In what situation would this ever be used in place of a view camera or shift lenses?
I don't get it. In every way it would hinder your ability to capture a usable image.
I'm curious what you see are positives.
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epatsellis

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2010, 02:06:34 pm »

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
In what situation would this ever be used in place of a view camera or shift lenses?
I don't get it. In every way it would hinder your ability to capture a usable image.
I'm curious what you see are positives.
Jonathan,
I would tend to agree. I have performed this experiment with a Dicomed scan back on both an RB and my RB/view camera hybrid, and while I'm working with more detail in the images than from a bayer pattern back, there is a clear loss of detail. I tossed the files months ago, but I may reshoot examples just to be sure I'm not mis-remembering. From what I remember, the difference wan't night and day, but if you looked carefully it was clearly evident at 1:1 with both files side by side. While it would likely pass muster on a printed page, I still prefer to supply the highest technical quality files I can. It's about the only differentiation in the market anymore, at least here in the more rural areas of the midwest where every third person has a DSLR and considers themself a semi-pro photographer.
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JonathanBenoit

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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 01:27:39 am »

Quote from: epatsellis
Jonathan,
I would tend to agree. I have performed this experiment with a Dicomed scan back on both an RB and my RB/view camera hybrid, and while I'm working with more detail in the images than from a bayer pattern back, there is a clear loss of detail. I tossed the files months ago, but I may reshoot examples just to be sure I'm not mis-remembering. From what I remember, the difference wan't night and day, but if you looked carefully it was clearly evident at 1:1 with both files side by side. While it would likely pass muster on a printed page, I still prefer to supply the highest technical quality files I can. It's about the only differentiation in the market anymore, at least here in the more rural areas of the midwest where every third person has a DSLR and considers themself a semi-pro photographer.

Lets assume the image quality is identical. Being able to see the final image is crucial with interiors. You wont be able to convince a professional architectural photographer that anyone can create consistent quality images of interiors without the use of in camera movements.
I am shocked this original post came from Alan.
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KevinA

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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 04:46:24 am »

Even if it was possible to adjust without any loss of detail or field of view, I can't see why you would want to trade one minutes of camera adjustment for half an hour or more of computer fiddling. If it's how can you shoot shoot on a budget without buying shift lenses or technical cameras it might have a place, but for the dedicated shooter the right tools have got to be at the front end of the job.

Kevin.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 07:44:23 am »

Quote from: KevinA
Even if it was possible to adjust without any loss of detail or field of view, I can't see why you would want to trade one minutes of camera adjustment for half an hour or more of computer fiddling. If it's how can you shoot shoot on a budget without buying shift lenses or technical cameras it might have a place, but for the dedicated shooter the right tools have got to be at the front end of the job.

Hi Kevin,

In this thread I notice a few people, not necessarily you, trying to defend their vested interests (or whatever ulterior motive they may have) by declaring that the OP is (in my own words) out-of-touch with reality. However, they are missing out on an opportunity to broaden their skill set. As always, for the best results one needs to know ones tools inside out. What if we are forced to operate in less than optimal conditions, how confident are we that we can still deliver the shot that the client needs? Do we postpone the search for solutions till then, or do we come to the battlefield prepared? I for one prefer the latter.

Knowing the limits of a certain approach will allow us to either compensate for them if possible, or cope with them in the best way we can (which, to mean anything, requires knowledge and experience). I applaud the OP for kicking off this thread for that purpose.

As for loss of detail due to resampling, people tend to forget that shooting a digital capture already involves sampling. When doing perspective corrections in software, there are in general two possible methods. One method involves interpolation, stretching/widening the top of the image of a building to correct for the keystoning. However, often overlooked, one can also shrink/resample the width at the bottom of the image, thus effectively super-sampling the pixels, which at the same time allows to reduce aliasing (provided one uses better software than PS). This is just one example of where expanding one's knowledge will pay-off, and entrenching doesn't.  

Cheers,
Bart
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JonathanBenoit

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In-Camera Movements vs PS Transforms
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 09:01:28 am »

Quote from: BartvanderWolf
Hi Kevin,

In this thread I notice a few people, not necessarily you, trying to defend their vested interests (or whatever ulterior motive they may have) by declaring that the OP is (in my own words) out-of-touch with reality. However, they are missing out on an opportunity to broaden their skill set. As always, for the best results one needs to know ones tools inside out. What if we are forced to operate in less than optimal conditions, how confident are we that we can still deliver the shot that the client needs? Do we postpone the search for solutions till then, or do we come to the battlefield prepared? I for one prefer the latter.

Knowing the limits of a certain approach will allow us to either compensate for them if possible, or cope with them in the best way we can (which, to mean anything, requires knowledge and experience). I applaud the OP for kicking off this thread for that purpose.

As for loss of detail due to resampling, people tend to forget that shooting a digital capture already involves sampling. When doing perspective corrections in software, there are in general two possible methods. One method involves interpolation, stretching/widening the top of the image of a building to correct for the keystoning. However, often overlooked, one can also shrink/resample the width at the bottom of the image, thus effectively super-sampling the pixels, which at the same time allows to reduce aliasing (provided one uses better software than PS). This is just one example of where expanding one's knowledge will pay-off, and entrenching doesn't.  

Cheers,
Bart

Bart,

Using lens distortion correction to straighten verticals is hardly a skill. This whole discussing is about using it as the primary and only solution for a given image. Sometimes using both in-camera movements and software might be necessary, but this isn't what the topic is about.
Some young photographers don't know the correct way to photograph architecture and I feel it is irresponsible not to provide them with accurate information.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2010, 12:20:28 pm »

Hi Jonathan,

Quote from: JonathanBenoit
Bart,

Using lens distortion correction to straighten verticals is hardly a skill.

Yet you and others keep harping on about loss of detail, which at best is a half truth. The first question one should ask oneself, what is the anticipated enduse of the image, and is there likely to be a need for larger output. The shooting conditions may narrow that choice down further (e.g. shooting from an inner-city road, between traffic-light changes). That will allow to detemine one's strategy, which may dictate certain equipment choices. When different choices are available one could opt for the most cost effective one in the long run.

Quote
This whole discussing is about using it as the primary and only solution for a given image. Sometimes using both in-camera movements and software might be necessary, but this isn't what the topic is about.
Some young photographers don't know the correct way to photograph architecture and I feel it is irresponsible not to provide them with accurate information.

Exactly, the topic is about using software to specifically do anamorphic distortion corrections. I think it is silly not to provide accurate and complete information, regardless of age/experience. Even old dogs can learn new tricks.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 02:39:20 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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