Mark Dubovoy's Leica S2 Review

[bcooter]

......snip.........
Maybe it is not 6, but it is certainly not 1.

.......snip........
Cheers.

Maybe because I worked transparency film for so long that I find digital to be flatter than the economy in Greece, but  even if there is a 4 something stop advantage in medium format (I really don't believe this), or almost medium format or whatever medium format is called today, there is also a thing called working in a professional manner.  We have foam core, lights, all sorts, silks, shiny boards and even if that's not possible with digital the ability to shoot multiple exposures, and blend them.

In fact unless your shooting at base iso I know my digital backs have less shadow performance than the dslrs I use.  At base iso there all very close, though I will be the first to admit the lack of an aa filter, the larger format does allow for some easier post production than most dslrs, though the difference is something I see, rarely if ever does the paying customer notice or even care.

There is a lot of reasons to shoot medium format and the overall sharpness at low iso with a lot of light is one of them, given the amount of post abuse we apply after a shoot, but to report a hand held camera to completely out performs everything in it's class somewhat surprises me given the state of readiness the S-2 is at and given the fact that Phase and Hasselblad (more so hasselblad on the lens side) has a lot of experience at this price level.

But all of this is a mute point other than it seems to me the Leica review had a slant towards Leica.  Maybe the focus is better, but it would take a lot of days, a lot of frames and a lot of subjects  for me to actually say that about any camera.  Maybe the lenses are Leica steller and 3d ish but once again I'd like to see this in real but tightening money on the table production.

As far as focusing goes, especially with "medium" format, or any camera, I suggest a tripod because focus will improve by 90%, no matter what camera your shooting.

IMO

BC

[BernardLanguillier]

My personal experience of designer in some advertising adgencies during many years, I have spent time in the post production task and the differences between files are clear.
The field, is that MF gives you a lot more room than 35mm, even an old 22mp MF. The difference is not little but huge, but only when you need to play on the extremes.

Can we at least agree once for all that not all DSLRs are equal DR wise? Why should they be when technology obviously plays a more important role than basic physics in influencing the quality of the output of a sensor?

I had the chance to play recently with 5DII files (shot by a pro for my wedding incidently) and was surprised by the amount of noise at low ISO in these files. If your assessment of DSLR is based on a 5DII then I totally understand how you feel about them.

The D3x is simply in a class of its own from that standpoint. This is both measured and seen in the files/prints. I am not claiming that the D3x is at MFDB level, just that they are clearly head and shoulder above the other DSLRs as we speak. I really hope that Sony and Canon do a better job in their next generation camera so that we can finally look objectively at the amazing job Nikon did with the D3x without brands afinity/relationships coming in the way.

Considering that back manufacturers claim that the main reason why they are superior DR wise is the quality of the circuitery and attention paid to details, there is no reason to think that DSLR manufaturers with the right skills and much more cash could not do a good job also. Incidently, that is exactly what Nikon claim they did. unfortunately, these forums do not have any Nikon representative coming to exlain us what they did and why it is reasonnable to believe their claims.

Cheers,
Bernard

[rainer_v]

i work since years as well with mf and 35mm, long and much enough that the choice i take is driven by practical / aesthetical thoughts not by status or price / quality believes and i think with 1 stop difference between current 35mm ffs and current mf backs we are more on the reality side ( and even this depends a lot on the light source ).

btw. i use a lot the 5dmk2 since the new shift lenses are out and no complains about noise so far from my side. its not perfect but a very reliable and professional tool, prints can look simply great , if shot and postprod with the right hands.

for me way more unusable are any kind of green magenta shifts, which still seem to be common with the kodak sensors if no constant white references are taken ( talk about the M ). but never i was reading in any test about that. what a pity.

[aaron]

Aaron,

Your aggressive tone is uncalled for. In fact since this was first raised by the Hasselblad rep and the issue came to our attention Mark has been aggressively pursuing as much technical information on the subject as he can, directly from senior engineering people at Leica and Phase One / Mamiya. Though in the past getting to high level technical contacts at Hasselblad has proven difficult, maybe now we can do so.

The net result is that when all the data is available and sorted out Mark now intends on writing something comprehensive on the subject, which I hope will benfit all of our understanding on the issue.

What I've learned so far is that while phase detection AF systems do not have "zones" the way that contrast detection systems do, they do indeed focus their lenses in discrete steps, and this is an understood issue in medium format AF design due to such systems' more shallow DOF than 35mm or smaller systems.

So I suggest that the name calling and finger pointing be shelved, and let's all wait to learn more about this subject. Mark Dubovoy is a scientist by profession, with a Phd in particle physics, and therefore well aware of  the scientific method and how to apply it to researching and writing up a topic like this.

It appears that we all have something to learn on the subject.

Michael

Michael,

Perhaps my tone was a little agressive, my apologies to Mark, this is not life and death stuff.

Aaron.

[Doug Peterson]

Maybe because I worked transparency film for so long that I find digital to be flatter than the economy in Greece

Agreed. Thank god we don't have to be stuck with one "emulsion" for any given shot. The manufacturer's defaults take all of a few seconds to override. You can turn a high bit-depth high-DR medium format raw file into a transparency film look or a muted color negative etc etc etc and still have all the proper tonal transitions and detail (or lack there of). Better to start with a file with great highlight/shadow headroom and then increase contrast 10 or 20 points than to start with a file with clipped highlight and shadow detail and then try to recover or fake detail/grain/color-accuracy/transitions in the highlights and shadows.

Doug Peterson
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[fredjeang]

Can we at least agree once for all that not all DSLRs are equal DR wise? Why should they be when technology obviously plays a more important role than basic physics in influencing the quality of the output of a sensor?

I had the chance to play recently with 5DII files (shot by a pro for my wedding incidently) and was surprised by the amount of noise at low ISO in these files. If your assessment of DSLR is based on a 5DII then I totally understand how you feel about them.

The D3x is simply in a class of its own from that standpoint. This is both measured and seen in the files/prints. I am not claiming that the D3x is at MFDB level, just that they are clearly head and shoulder above the other DSLRs as we speak. I really hope that Sony and Canon do a better job in their next generation camera so that we can finally look objectively at the amazing job Nikon did with the D3x without brands afinity/relationships coming in the way.

Considering that back manufacturers claim that the main reason why they are superior DR wise is the quality of the circuitery and attention paid to details, there is no reason to think that DSLR manufaturers with the right skills and much more cash could not do a good job also. Incidently, that is exactly what Nikon claim they did. unfortunately, these forums do not have any Nikon representative coming to exlain us what they did and why it is reasonnable to believe their claims.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
I'm aware of that Nikon. What you point has always been a Nikon's strengh. Yes, in agencies 95% of the files where Canon's from 1D saga. (I quit before the 5D2).

About my 4 stops, you'll have noticed that I wrote my "sugbectives stops". 1 stop is considered as the reasonable norm.
I have another experience when it comes to PP.

As I pointed, the recuperation capability or headroom as you say in english, at based isos because above 400 forget it, is much more than that and I claim 4 stops non official .

BC certainly point a truth: we can acheive almost what we want today when handled by pros, with any gear.

I also find digi flatter than the greek economy and I find these DR and focus preocupation completly exacerbate.
In fact, I'm working now on trying to restrain my DR for certain works that I hope I'll be able to put on line after this summer.

Less DR and autofocus would not be bad, sometimes and at least for me.

PS 1: BC, I like the "snip", "snip"...is it the sound of the Canon's curtain or the Contax? The Leica does "clow" clow", but they are German.

PS 2: Hey, now that you send your retouchings, have you already forgot about the oscurs texan days when you had to do the task by yourself?  
But I'm sure you would love again the MF files if you where a simple designer.
SRV was playing the Fender with lamp amp.

[tho_mas]

for me way more unusable are any kind of green magenta shifts, which still seem to be common with the kodak sensors if no constant white references are taken ( talk about the M ). but never i was reading in any test about that. what a pity.

I honestly think that only few people see it. (not because it's just subtile... but most people simply don't expect a color shift to be there... so they don't see it).

[rainer_v]

I honestly think that only few people see it. (not because it's just subtile... but most people simply don't expect a color shift to be there... so they don't see it).

it looks like.
and from that point on i dont understand what about all this discussions are good except to create myths
about thats the camera which counts if a photograph looks good or not.

and even if such fundamental weak points would be seen and discussed as well in our forums and tests  ( so long till the manufactors would be pressed enough to change their products to perform as they should do it ) it would not change that
a 10% better taken motif outperforms any given "x" mp more resolution.
a slightly better selected moment of the shot or a slightly better light counts by far more in the final image
as any 0,X stops higher dynamic range.

[tho_mas]

and from that point on i dont understand what about all this discussions are good except to create myths
about thats the camera which counts if a photograph looks good or not.

and even if such fundamental weak points would be seen and discussed as well in our forums and tests  ( so long till the manufactors would be pressed enough to change their products to perform as they should do it ) it would change that
a 10% better taken motif outperforms any given "x" mp more resolution.
a slightly better selected moment of the shot or a slightly better light counts by far more in the final image
as any 0,X stops higher dynamic range.

so true!

[fredjeang]

Agreed. Thank god we don't have to be stuck with one "emulsion" for any given shot. The manufacturer's defaults take all of a few seconds to override. You can turn a high bit-depth high-DR medium format raw file into a transparency film look or a muted color negative etc etc etc and still have all the proper tonal transitions and detail (or lack there of). Better to start with a file with great highlight/shadow headroom and then increase contrast 10 or 20 points than to start with a file with clipped highlight and shadow detail and then try to recover or fake detail/grain/color-accuracy/transitions in the highlights and shadows.

Doug Peterson
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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I arrived to the same conclusion as you, Doug.

In my desire to put the DR into a box, I mean by that to reduce it, my first way has been to clip from capture. But this was not the right way to do because it was too unpredictible. Digital is not film. As you point, better to have headroom and then I get rid of it in PP.

I've always been critic with MF in terms of usability, specially with the lcd, but I have nothing to complain in terms of IQ.
I like when I move the cursor to the left or right in capture and the image is not falling appart. It simply stands still.

[fredjeang]

I know this is out of topic, but intrigued by the BC avatar, I went to the Dukes of Hazzard website to try to understand.

But I don't understand anything really. I don't get it.  
And why General Lee car appears all the time in that web page?

Does an American citizen could resume to a European the importance of Cooter's in your culture?

[Rob C]

I know this is out of topic, but intrigued by the BC avatar, I went to the Dukes of Hazzard website to try to understand.

But I don't understand anything really. I don't get it.  
And why General Lee car appears all the time in that web page?

Does an American citizen could resume to a European the importance of Cooter's in your culture?

Fred

I well remember watching the Dukes series; it was a fascinating look into the imaginary life of the American boondocker. It also represented something almost aspirational - don't laugh - what with its CB radio etc. which, believe it or not, was banned in the UK for quite some time, as were the pirate radio stations, of which Radio Caroline (North and South) was my favourite. Many an otherwise lonely night in the darkroom was helped along by the Mamas and the Papas chanting about their 'darkest hour' being 'just before dawn'! Too bloody true! Another one that I loved, Radio Scotland, was local, and it was on when they announced that Elvis had left the building. Also, there was an ad for a modelling agency on it for a while, that I followed up and which led to my first contact with a pro version (as raw as myself at the time) of the genre from whence it all (my real photo life) began. So thanks, pirates.

But the Dooks' car: also a huge part of the US dream for other people. Living in India for some years I was quite used to the sight of US wheels of the 40s - early 50s; back in the UK (a song there?) maybe all folks saw of them was around USAF bases and compared with the junk that we produced in Britain and the prices of said rubbish when compared to the US home-buys, no wonder we thought the US a promised land. Somehow, that Ford Consul was never going to look cool with a Union Jack on the roof. The Mini graced some such motifs during the Carnaby Street era in the home-grown version of self-expression but it was something quaint rather than macho, art born of poverty.

I guess that America still remains a bit of a dream for non-Americans; we have been raised on the Hollywood version of reality and it was years before I, for one, accepted that not all Americans had V8s, swimming pools and lived in houses with white fences with a barn and a horse at the back. All cowboys played the guitar, had balls of steel that could withstand leaping down into a saddle from extraordinary hights (strong nags, too!) and, best of all, nobody ever had to work. Well, perhaps not best of all; best of all was that all the girls were fantastically beautiful, passed the days in school, cafés or flower shops, appeared to have no guile whatsoever and anyone could just walk up and stand a pretty good chance of scoring! The one bad thing: we all had to learn how to walk like Robert Mitchum. It was half-way easier for me, being called Robert, but that half was the only bit that worked.

I suspect that some large percentage of the US still quietly believes parts of the same dream: you'd have too - why else continue the battle against the odds? For the rest of us - maybe disillusion sets in earlier, not a happier choice. Obviously enough.

But without dreams we might as well emulate the lemming.

Rob C

[David Grover / Capture One]

How come we are talking about 35mm vs MF again and DR?  

Anyway, to get back on track. Thanks for your reply Mark.

I'm in Italy today so wont be able to give you a proper response, so please bear with me until tomorrow!

I certainly have stuff from the horses mouth regarding our AF operation. Of course it would not be right for me to comment on Leica or any other manufacturers systems further.

Cheers,


David.

[rainer_v]

-----

[rainer_v]

How come we are talking about 35mm vs MF again and DR?  

Anyway, to get back on track. Thanks for your reply Mark.

I'm in Italy today so wont be able to give you a proper response, so please bear with me until tomorrow!

I certainly have stuff from the horses mouth regarding our AF operation. Of course it would not be right for me to comment on Leica or any other manufacturers systems further.

Cheers,


David.

yes.
one point among various others which are related only to mf type sensors and cameras.
( ... magenta-green should be a well known keyword for  your too , although these  kodak sensor designs  are used in 35mm by the M and formerly the kodak 14n/slr as well )  

[SeanBK]

..........................................
I had the chance to play recently with 5DII files (shot by a pro for my wedding incidently) and was surprised by the amount of noise at low ISO in these files......................
Cheers,
Bernard

Congratulations Bernard & wish you many joys outside of our L-L bubble.

[fredjeang]

yes.
one point among various others which are related only to mf type sensors and cameras.
( ... magenta-green should be a well known keyword for  your too , although these  kodak sensor designs  are used in 35mm by the M and formerly the kodak 14n/slr as well )  

 
I've seen horrible xtreme mag-green with the 14n I must say, but that was some years ago.

Back with this Leica S2 article, a point I regret that has not been discussed, is the dslr design choice.

The S2 proposal makes me perplex on that. I don't understand why it is not possible to combine both worlds???
I mean, a dslr design and usability, but with removable back.

Sinar did something in that way with the M, although this Sinar is pretty big.
[attachment=22872:11791683...inar_m_b.jpg]

The biggest problem I see with this Leica, is that it will not be fast enough to please the dslr users, and not versatile enough to please the MF users.
Even if they improve the tether and the lens range.
When sensor is obsolete, and they are quite fast, the all body will have to be buy again, but this is another story than upgrading the C Mark...
The Pentax can handle that because it is much cheaper.

But, why MF manufacturers are not "wilder" when it comes to designing their bodies and their backs lcd?
The Sinar M design style, on diet and with a powerfull lcd and connections will truly be a winner.

But the sad story, is that such a system will probably be done by the "big boys" before MF brands will have reacted on time.
And when it's too late it's too late.

I hope that Leica and others will put their designers on the drawing board very soon and finally come with more drastic solutions.

Edit: Rainer, I've seen after writing my post that you are using the Sinar M. Coincidence? Anyway, I'd like you to comment about your feeling on this design.
Do you feel a better usability than with other MF cameras ? the M being let's say a modular philosophy and closer to a dslr design.
That would be interesting to have your thoughts. Thanks.

[David Grover / Capture One]

yes.
one point among various others which are related only to mf type sensors and cameras.
( ... magenta-green should be a well known keyword for  your too , although these  kodak sensor designs  are used in 35mm by the M and formerly the kodak 14n/slr as well )  

I am not sure I understand the point of your post?

Those kodak designs are well behind what they produce today.

[rainer_v]

I am not sure I understand the point of your post?

Those kodak designs are well behind what they produce today.

so no more color shits visible between the right and the left side of the frame  if e.g. an even grey colored wall is photographed,  without  that you are applying a white reference ?

with shift cameras i dont see this a big problem because now ( after many many years ) all have a working solution integrated in their software to apply these white references in a more or less fluid workflow ( although of course it would be better if there would be NO need for this step as it is with canon/nikon/sony sensors )  but cameras as the M which provide dng files even does not allow you the possibility to correct the files afterward in that way.
several M users commented this  issue to me, these shift in general are very well known for me since the first generations of kodak sensors, as far as i know till today at least for a part of their product line-  do not know the youngest   50/60 mp sensors.
maybe i am wrong with this and you use sensors in your h50/60 behave different, but even if so please have in mind how many years H has been sold this color shifting sensors without providing even any software solution to remove these shifts ( before your new software came out 1 year ago or so ).

[David Grover / Capture One]

so no more color shits visible between the right and the left side of the frame  if e.g. an even grey colored wall is photographed,  without  that you are applying a white reference ?

with shift cameras i dont see this a big problem because now ( after many many years ) all have a working solution integrated in their software to apply these white references in a more or less fluid workflow ( although of course it would be better if there would be NO need for this step as it is with canon/nikon/sony sensors )  but cameras as the M which provide dng files even does not allow you the possibility to correct the files afterward in that way.
several M users commented this  issue to me, these shift in general are very well known for me since the first generations of kodak sensors, as far as i know till today at least for a part of their product line-  do not know the youngest   50/60 mp sensors.
maybe i am wrong with this and you use sensors in your h50/60 behave different, but even if so please have in mind how many years H has been sold this color shifting sensors without providing even any software solution to remove these shifts ( before your new software came out 1 year ago or so ).

Lens cast correction has been available 3 years plus in Hasselblad software.  Can we get back on topic?